The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Diablo III
MotoHeroz
Loren The Amazon Princess
Nothing's Gonna Stop Me Now
Minecraft
Ascension: Chronicle of the Godslayer
Reiner Knizia's Ra
Disc Drivin'
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Torchlight 2
Grim Dawn
Hareraiser: Prelude
Delve: The Dice Game
Botanicula
Mass Effect 2
Professor Layton and the Diabolical Box
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty
Diablo II
Demon's Souls
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
BioShock
Rome: Total War
Fantasy General
Portal 2
Battle Academy
Royal Envoy
ArmA II
Batman: Arkham City
Max Payne 3
Street Fighter X Tekken
Hareraiser: Finale
Civilization V: Gods & Kings
Fealty
Rinth Island
Centipede: Infestation
Halo: Combat Evolved
Portal
Fallout 3
Final Fantasy III
Final Fantasy VI
Super Smash Bros.
Super Mario 64
Age of Booty
Carcassonne
Scribblenauts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Advance Wars
Mario Kart Double Dash!!
NetHack
Half-Life 2

The Bored Gaymer

A small blog to explore the intersection of queer issues and gaming
Recommend
39 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up

On Storylines, Queer Inclusivity, and Dragon Age

Jason Beck
United States
Springfield
Virginia
Hail, hail, Robonia, a land I didn't make up
badge
If you're a Cylon, I'd like to know.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Or: How I learned to stop worrying and love universal bisexuality

Between recommendations on Facebook, Twitter, this blog, and in person, it seems I’ve become something of a shill for Bioware lately. Today I’d like to continue this trend and discuss Dragon Age II's integration of queer romances into the storyline; you can read my full review of the game here, and you can read my initial thoughts on why queer romances and queer inclusivity are good things here. I am not, however, going to re-hash my opinions on why I think Bioware has done a good thing by being more queer-inclusive. Rather, I’d like to discuss the how of what they’ve done in Dragon Age II and why that’s important, too.

(This should be considered to have small romantic spoilers for the male-Hawke-Anders romance storyline, but for the sake of narrative clarity I’m not going to hide things behind spoiler boxes all the time.)

When you first encounter Anders- a cute but, um, slightly unstable, mage- it’s in the context of rescuing a male friend of his. Later, after further discussion with him, a number of things are revealed about his past. Anders is interesting because he will actually initiate the flirting with Hawke, a change from the normal will-never-initiate-any-flirting-NPCs in these games. It isn’t done in an overly ridiculous way, though, and if Hawke is receptive to the flirting the story will actually slightly change: with a female Hawke, the friend that needs rescuing is just a friend; with a flirting-receptive male Hawke, the friend is more than just a friend.

These subtle changes will take place elsewhere in the story and the game world, but they are never over-the-top, they are never stupid, and they are never immature. In fact, it seems safe to say that the queer inclusivity in DAII is done in a manner that is uniformly excellent, uniformly mature. All four of the romantic options (two male, two female) in the game can be romanced by either male or female Hawke and the game happily avoids the pitfall of throwing in a "token gay" as a sop to the gayming audience. Indeed, the queer romantic options feel like characters first and ‘mos second: this is as it should be, of course.

The maturity and depth of the integration continues throughout the game. This being Bioware, your companions will always have plenty to say, and this includes commentary on any romantic entanglements you may be in. The comments are never disrespectful, though, they’re never bigoted- they may be snarky, sure, but I never felt uncomfortable, never felt like there was any underlying bigotry being directed at me (or any other gaymer). In fact, there was only one of those tedious, "So who wears the pants in the relationship?" jokes (which, really, is just a terrible thing to say), but the context/framing of it was so entertaining that it was clearly meant without malice.

In all this, DAII represents a significant step forward for Bioware. Dragon Age: Origins features a single male-male romantic option (Zevran) while featuring a number of hetero options. Mass Effect 2 represented a step back for the company, as there were several hetero-only options, as well as a female-female option, but no male-male option. DAII’s romantic options, therefore, represent a move forward into a gaming environment where there are options for everyone.

The issue has gotten a little attention very recently because of a response from (Bioware senior writer) David Gaider on the Bioware Social Forums to a post from a gamer insisting that Bioware had neglected the "Straight Male Gamer" in this latest iteration. The original post is an excellent example of an homophobic nerd shackled by an extremely heteronormative worldview, but Gaider’s response is at once a) an example of how to respond to a position you disagree with on the internet [that is, polite, respectful, firm, informative] and b) an excellent and quick take-down of heteronormativity within this specific context (DAII) and within a broader context (gaming). (You can find this here; it is a worthwhile read.)

A potential problem raised by some: universal bisexuality. If you make everyone bi, after all, isn’t that just as unrealistic as making no one a homo? That is essentially what has happened here, no? Except, really, it isn’t. The upside of RPGs is that the story can be told and re-told differently, so in the first game, sure, Anders might’ve been totally gay for me, but if I re-play it as a female Hawke, then he’s totally straight for me. "Universal bisexuality" is, I think, a confusion of a storyline in a game and the mechanics offered by the game itself. That is, just because these options are available to me doesn’t mean they’re going to be a part of the story every time I play. Certain characters can be bi, of course (see also: Zevran), but that doesn’t mean that the mechanical option available behind the scenes, as it were, is going to make an appearance all the time.

And this, really, should be how these things are handled, shouldn’t it? Making options available to players is almost inevitably a good thing. This "universal bisexuality" may be a mechanical necessity; would I have serious objections to DAII if, instead of featuring multi-option romance characters, it had featured, say, two hetero women, two homo women, two hetero males, and two homo males? Well, no: equality of inclusivity is a good thing. But, really, that doubles the amount of work that has to be done, and so accepting that a character can swing either way is not just a question of making an important distinction between mechanics and story, but is also recognition of the very real limits imposed by the medium itself.

It is worth noting, however, that I am in no way mandating that it Must Be This Way in All Games Forever and Ever et saecula saeculorum, amen. No, no: queer inclusivity in games where it makes no sense is not something I’ve ever said was a good idea. If I’m playing a game about the medieval period, I’m not going to expect to be able to get married to a dude. Rather, in games where queer inclusivity is acceptable within the setting, inclusivity is to be applauded. So, since there are (apparently) no problems with the ‘mos in the DA setting, including same-sex romance options is assuredly a good thing.

In all, DAII represents an important step forward (at least, in my eyes). We have a significantly mainstream game here that is not only including same-sex romance options, but also is not making a big deal about it. These kinds of improvements in queer representation/inclusivity can (and should) be applauded (and, really, rewarded with money!- that is, you know, by buying the games and stuff). Hopefully, as inclusivity moves more into the mainstream, we will see more of it, and the more we see, the more mainstream it’ll all become. In the meantime, it’s worth taking note of those companies that are (for whatever reason) doing the right thing, and doing it well.
Twitter Facebook
32 Comments
Subscribe sub options Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:36 pm
Post Comment
CS Hearns
Canada
Montréal
Québec
flag msg tools
Avatar
Hey, in that linked article, straight male gamer says:

Quote:
The romance options, Isabella and Merrill, were clearly designed for the straight male gamers in mind. Unfortunately, those choices are what one would call "exotic" choices.


What does he mean by "exotic"? I don't play, uh, industry video games, so I know nothing about the game or the company, so I read that, and I'm, well, I'm confused.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:50 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Dave G
United States

Illinois
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've been playing and very much enjoying DAII this week as well, and I commented to a friend over lunch yesterday that the romance options all seem to be very well done. The homosexual possibilities are not foisted on the player in a "OMG LOOK AT OUR GAYS WE HAZ INCLUSION!" way, but they're also not hidden. To be blunt, in my game so far I'd say the most notable thing is how well developed the character relationships are. It's an RPG, and it's up to the player to decide what kind of relationships to have with the rest of your party. The cool thing is that every possibility is really well fleshed out, including the (obviously non-sexual) relationship with your sister. I like that it's not this grand, robust relationship for the "straight" player and a throwaway "now we're dating" thing if you choose to go the homosexual route. It's a character choice, which is exactly what an RPG should be about.

Also, it bears mentioning that the game doesn't force any romantic options on you. If you choose to play Hawke as a complete jerk (my personal route this time through the game) it almost doesn't matter--no one wants to sleep with you anyway.

Even that is interesting, though. I've chosen not to reject Fenris' romantic advances, mostly because my version of Hawke is not straight or gay. He's incredibly focused on the task at hand, and intolerant of any distraction. To my mind, my version of Hawke might still be won over by one of these companions. I'm interested to see how hard the NPCs will try, and I'm willing to give in to one of them over time if I feel like it's consistent with the Hawke I've created. And isn't that what the game is supposed to be about?
10 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:54 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Dave G
United States

Illinois
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chearns wrote:


What does he mean by "exotic"? I don't play, uh, industry video games, so I know nothing about the game or the company, so I read that, and I'm, well, I'm confused.


I haven't met Isabella yet in my adventure, but I'm guessing it's referring to the fact that Merrill is a tattooed Dalish Elf with some dodgy ethics. Great character, but not the obvious choice.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:59 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Matt Downey
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Very well written, as always Jason. I really enjoy that you put out these blogs, as it is a perspective that is mostly lacking in the industry.

I might actually go and buy this game now, if I had a computer that could run it. I did buy the Dragon Age RPG.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:07 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
I liked David Gaider's statement near the end of that article: "And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least."
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:10 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Keith Warner
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm glad you're enjoying the game and the characters and relationships. There is a lot of negativism around in regards to some of the choices we made, so it's always nice to see that some people are enjoying themselves.
All of the writers, go to tremendous amounts of work when putting together the characters and their plots so I'll make sure to pass on your compliments to Dave as I'm sure they will be appreciated.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:03 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Lance Richardson
United States

Texas
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
WHAT!? There are gays in my video games now!?!?!?! WTF!? This is horrible! What is this world coming to?!

Psssh, seriously folks, get the hell over it. Gays are everywhere and in everything. Get over it and move on. This is not "news" or "ground-breaking" in any way.

I'm gonna go watch Glee, Modern Family and Greys Anatomy as I download some "Boardgames with Scott" videos.

(PS: If this post made you mad then you didn't get the point)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:55 pm
  • Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:54 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Doug Herring
United States
Pflugerville
Texas
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
spoiler ALERT

So Jason, I have played through DA2 and loved it. I was, to say the least, a little shocked by Anders. Not because of the gay relationship, as I was fostering it after all, but because he initiated it and planted one on me all unexpected like. As you say,a big change from the first game.
Well, I played along and stuck to the relationship. If you finished the game you know how that turned out.

Anyway, I am a straight guy but really liked the way the game played out and the romances that were possible. My character was a total slut. Had isabela, Merril and Anders. Greedy champion had to have em all. I think I missed the boat with miss guard captain though by helping her with her guard guy.

I like that no matter what relationship you pursued it felt natural and not forced. With any of the characters you could take it or leave it.

Well done on your post!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:58 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Luke Morris
Japan
Nagoya
Aichi
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well in Mass Effect 2 would you WANT a relationship with Jacob?!
He's just annoyed me incessantly since the game started.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:37 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Finbikkifin Finfinfin


msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chearns wrote:
Hey, in that linked article, straight male gamer says:

Quote:
The romance options, Isabella and Merrill, were clearly designed for the straight male gamers in mind. Unfortunately, those choices are what one would call "exotic" choices.

What does he mean by "exotic"? I don't play, uh, industry video games, so I know nothing about the game or the company, so I read that, and I'm, well, I'm confused.

Isabella's insufficiently white for him? There's at least one mod out there to "fix" this.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:14 am
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:14 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jooky
United States
Canton
IL
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
The original post is an excellent example of an homophobic nerd shackled by an extremely heteronormative worldview


Ok, I have to say that generally I really enjoy reading your blog. I found this one interesting up until the above quote from you. I read the posts that you linked and I thought that "The Straight Male Gamer" sounded perfectly reasonable in his original post. That is not to say he was right, but he did not come off as some total "God Hates Fags" type loon. I think that the term homophobic gets tossed around too much. I also feel that it is a term that is often misused. You can dislike or disagree with something without being afraid of it.

It just surprises me that in a blog about acceptance and togetherness that there would be such a blatant example of divisiveness.

If anyone feels that I am too far out of line here, please feel free to geekmail me instead of clogging up this blog thread.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:59 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
Jooky wrote:
Quote:
The original post is an excellent example of an homophobic nerd shackled by an extremely heteronormative worldview


Ok, I have to say that generally I really enjoy reading your blog. I found this one interesting up until the above quote from you. I read the posts that you linked and I thought that "The Straight Male Gamer" sounded perfectly reasonable in his original post.

To me, he indeed "sounded" reasonable in the sense that he wrote articulately and calmly and at great length. He can certainly string sentences together competently and authoritatively.

But as far as I understood it, his central point is that he doesn't like that there were so many possibilities for same-sex relationships - even though there were also opposite-sex relationships - because this apparently watered down the good stuff too much and that it was stupid of the creators to try to cater to anyone besides straight males.

Also, did you notice the part where he casually acknowledged that he finds homosexuality to be "digusting" (sic)? That seems like pretty obvious homophobia to me.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:08 am
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:07 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Allan Clements
Norway
Oslo
Turns out Esseb did touch the flag. Don't tell him I said so though.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I loved the options in Dragon Age 2. Loved that post from bioware responding to it, great to see them stick up for their decisions.

I do however think that it is a bit weird that characters change because of your choice of gender, in a single play through you don't really notice but if you play multiple times as different genders then it seems a bit weird that people change just because you changed gender. This however is really no different than when you change class and get different story elements.

It is also weird you can only flirt with people who are interested in you, for example you can't flirt with Varric or Sebastian as a male, and get turned down by them. I think it would have been interesting to try to pursue a relationship but ultimately be turned down because they aren't interested for whatever reason.

Perhaps this guy never played enough to meet Isabella? (she has some awesome conversations with the other party members!)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:52 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Andreas Krüger
Germany
Krefeld
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am starting to get really interested in this game because of its relationship model.

Allowing a gay NPC to make the first step may have been slightly too much for the more conservative crowd. While I appreciate this as a means of the game to push the personal story forward, some people may be seriously annoyed. They are wrong, in my opinion, but I do not think it is helpful to annoy them. So a slightly more careful Anders might have been a better choice.

I know that being inclusive will always annoy some people and yet it is absolutely necessary, but considering how some people react to quite harmless art like the cards of 7 wonders, a less progressive stance might have been a better choice. It might have set about the same message with less trouble. And just to make it clear: The message that gay persons are normal is absolutely right and important.

On the other hand, this is how we make progress. Someone steps forward, everybody is like "Oh no", and later it is normal and accepted.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:06 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jason Beck
United States
Springfield
Virginia
Hail, hail, Robonia, a land I didn't make up
badge
If you're a Cylon, I'd like to know.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chearns wrote:
What does he mean by "exotic"? I don't play, uh, industry video games, so I know nothing about the game or the company, so I read that, and I'm, well, I'm confused.


I could be wrong, but I think "exotic" is generally a term used to refer to a non-white female in a predominantly white atmosphere. That is, you get the "exotic" Japanese geisha or Hindu princess or African warrior-queen as a contrast to the more "typical" white housewife.

In DAII the female romance options are (as noted by others) an elf mage and a non-white pirate, so I assume that's what he is referring to.

~

As ever, thanks to everyone for the positive posts and kind comments.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:10 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
CS Hearns
Canada
Montréal
Québec
flag msg tools
Avatar
Colonial One wrote:
I could be wrong, but I think "exotic" is generally a term used to refer to a non-white female in a predominantly white atmosphere.


Yes, this is how I interpret it as well (but this is a fantasy video game, so it was possible that he simply meant, you know, non-human).

I was curious to see if he was only disgusted by homosexuality, or if inter-ethnic sexual (or romantic) relations bothered him as well. Gives me a fuller picture of the complainer (as well as the complaint).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:41 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Andreas Krüger
Germany
Krefeld
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chearns wrote:
Colonial One wrote:
I could be wrong, but I think "exotic" is generally a term used to refer to a non-white female in a predominantly white atmosphere.


Yes, this is how I interpret it as well (but this is a fantasy video game, so it was possible that he simply meant, you know, non-human).

I was curious to see if he was only disgusted by homosexuality, or if inter-ethnic sexual (or romantic) relations bothered him as well. Gives me a fuller picture of the complainer (as well as the complaint).


Well, the Elf is non-human, and a pirate may not be the best choice for a relation. Lets give the guy the benefit of doubt and assume that he is only homophobic. :-).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:39 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jooky
United States
Canton
IL
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:

To me, he indeed "sounded" reasonable in the sense that he wrote articulately and calmly and at great length. He can certainly string sentences together competently and authoritatively.


Yes. This is what I was talking about. It did not seem like a "rant to me. Merely somebody that was upset about something that he personally did not care for.


Quote:

But as far as I understood it, his central point is that he doesn't like that there were so many possibilities for same-sex relationships - even though there were also opposite-sex relationships - because this apparently watered down the good stuff too much and that it was stupid of the creators to try to cater to anyone besides straight males.


Ok. I will try to view this untainted, but that will be difficult because I am also a Straight Male Gamer. I understand his view point. The vast majority of video game players are straight white males. I cannot speak for all of us, but I would imagine that most straight white males do not want homosexual relationships in their video games.

That being said, just because one demographic is the majority does not mean that the game developer should ONLY consider them. Plenty of games have black characters, plenty of games have women characters. Why shouldn't a game contain a homosexual character? At the risk of MAYBE alienating the majority, the developers may introduce others to their game, and the majority may be introduced to new ideas. I figure its a win-win.

Quote:

Also, did you notice the part where he casually acknowledged that he finds homosexuality to be "digusting" (sic)? That seems like pretty obvious homophobia to me.



Yes, I saw in his addendum to his original post that he found homosexuality disgusting. However, just because he doesn't like it doesn't mean he is afraid of it. This type of knee jerk labeling is why I called out Jason on his original post. No matter how accepted homosexuality may become in the world, there will still be people that do not care for it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:32 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
Jooky wrote:
Yes, I saw in his addendum to his original post that he found homosexuality disgusting. However, just because he doesn't like it doesn't mean he is afraid of it.

OK, just a vocabulary/semantic confusion then. "Homophobia" doesn't just mean "fear" but also "antipathy". I.e. it's more like "xenophobia" than "acrophobia".
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:16 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Matt Downey
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jooky wrote:
I cannot speak for all of us, but I would imagine that most straight white males do not want homosexual relationships in their video games.


You're using anecdotal evidence just as much as the poster in the Dragon Age forum.

Bio Ware had an excellent response to this that was largely ignored. The company has metrics for how often the particular relationship choices are made and followed. I would rather trust their hard numbers of how popular a particular feature is than your imagination of what a collective group might want.

I don't fit into the "straight white male gamer" category, but I know I am much more likely to purchase Dragon Age products (or other Bio Ware products) in the future.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:43 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Dave G
United States

Illinois
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jooky wrote:

Ok. I will try to view this untainted, but that will be difficult because I am also a Straight Male Gamer. I understand his view point. The vast majority of video game players are straight white males. I cannot speak for all of us, but I would imagine that most straight white males do not want homosexual relationships in their video games.


Why not? Say I grant your premise, that most gamers are "straight white males." I don't know that's a fact, but let's say it is. Why would your next assumption be that those gamers "don't want homosexual relationships" in their games? I don't follow that logic. You're talking about a group of people who are willing to extend their imagination to the point of battling an alien horde as a space marine or stomping on anthropomorphic turtles while riding a baby dinosaur as an Italian-American plumber or chopping up giant scarab beetles as a futuristic ninja, but you don't think they can make the same leap to deal with a character possibly having a different sexual orientation? These same straight white males play as female characters, as animals, as Asian characters, as black characters, as resuscitated Greek gods, as cyborg soldiers....that's all ok, but if one of those characters is gay it somehow takes them out of the game? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:31 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Jooky
United States
Canton
IL
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Jooky wrote:

Ok. I will try to view this untainted, but that will be difficult because I am also a Straight Male Gamer. I understand his view point. The vast majority of video game players are straight white males. I cannot speak for all of us, but I would imagine that most straight white males do not want homosexual relationships in their video games.


Why not? Say I grant your premise, that most gamers are "straight white males." I don't know that's a fact, but let's say it is. Why would your next assumption be that those gamers "don't want homosexual relationships" in their games? I don't follow that logic. You're talking about a group of people who are willing to extend their imagination to the point of battling an alien horde as a space marine or stomping on anthropomorphic turtles while riding a baby dinosaur as an Italian-American plumber or chopping up giant scarab beetles as a futuristic ninja, but you don't think they can make the same leap to deal with a character possibly having a different sexual orientation? These same straight white males play as female characters, as animals, as Asian characters, as black characters, as resuscitated Greek gods, as cyborg soldiers....that's all ok, but if one of those characters is gay it somehow takes them out of the game? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.


Why not? Because the concept is totally alien to them. Fantasy and sci-fi elements are far more familiar to them. I would be willing to wager that an average fan of sci-fi games has seen Star Wars a lot more often than he has seen Brokeback Mountain. Sure, you will have anomalies that pop up, but they are just that, anomalies.

If you feel so strongly that I am ridiculously wrong, then go ahead and take a poll. Not here on BGG, but the internet in general. Survey 10,000 Straight Male Gamers. Ask them how they feel about having homosexual story lines inserted into games. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of them would not be jumping up and down in their excitement about being able to play a homosexual romance. Is this to say that there is something bad about that? I don't think so. It is simply something that does not interest them. It is outside of their knowledge area or comfort zone. For example, I collect board games, razors, and fountain pens. I do not collect barbie dolls, cookie jars, or salt and pepper shakers. I would not want to watch a documentary on the history of cookie jars. It is outside of my knowledge area and I have little interest in it. Is it bad of me to not want to watch that cookie jar documentary? Because as we all know, collecting cookie jars is a valid hobby. It is just not for me.

Feel free to misconstrue my post as stating that homosexuality is no different than collecting cookie jars.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:36 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Matt Downey
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The likelihood of us being able to conduct a scientifically valid poll for this issue is small.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:00 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Matt Downey
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jooky wrote:
Because the concept is totally alien to them.


I would say that I think most straight white male gamers are familiar with the concept of homosexuality, but then I would be basing that off of nothing more than my opinion and some bit of deductive reasoning.

One person thinks straight white male gamers are typically prone to dislike the subject of homosexuality, and another person thinks that opinions on homosexuality are not generally tied to being a straight white male gamer.

I think that sums up the most recent conversation, and I doubt anyone is going to change opinions.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:06 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
Jooky wrote:
Why not? Because the concept is totally alien to them. Fantasy and sci-fi elements are far more familiar to them. I would be willing to wager that an average fan of sci-fi games has seen Star Wars a lot more often than he has seen Brokeback Mountain. Sure, you will have anomalies that pop up, but they are just that, anomalies.

Well, duh.

I would be willing to wager that an average fan of sci-fi games has seen Star Wars a lot more often than he has seen Brokeback Mountain because Star Wars is full of sci-fi action and Brokeback Mountain isn't!

Thought experiments:

1. Suppose a same-sex relationship appeared in one of the Star Wars movies. (E.g. Han and Lando have some kind of romantic relationship, and the rest of the film is Star Wars as we know and love it, full of sci-fi action, cool special effects, and all that jazz.)

Would all those people who like sci-fi and Star Wars movies really no longer enjoy it and no longer want to see Star Wars?

2. Suppose Brokeback Mountain was a sad slow arty film about a man and a woman taking care of animals in the summer and having a doomed affair full of angst that the married one doesn't reveal to their spouse and they're all depressed and trapped in mundane lives and social obligations and eventually one of them dies. (I.e. simply change the sex of one of the main characters and leave the rest the same.)

Would all those people who like sci-fi and Star Wars movies now really rush to see Brokeback Mountain?

Quote:
I am willing to bet that the vast majority of them would not be jumping up and down in their excitement about being able to play a homosexual romance.

But why does that even matter? As far as I understand the game in question, nothing forces the player to play a gay character. They can have a heterosexual relationship in the game if that's all they are interested in, right?

How is this fundamentally any different from a game offering you a choice of playing a white character or a black character, and white gamers complaining "We're the majority and we don't want to play a black character! We don't like that they put the option of playing a black character in the game!"
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Edited Fri Apr 1, 2011 9:04 am
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:37 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Matt Downey
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
2. Suppose Brokeback Mountain was a sad slow arty film about a man and a woman taking care of animals in the summer and having a doomed affair full of angst that the married one doesn't reveal to their spouse and they're all depressed and trapped in mundane lives and social obligations and eventually one of them dies. I.e. (i.e. simply change the sex of one of the main characters and leave the rest the same.)

Would all those people who like sci-fi and Star Wars movies now really rush to see Brokeback Mountain?

laugh
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:49 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
By serendipity, I just stumbled upon this link (coincidentally about science fiction) which seems apropos the subject here:

http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2011/03/hard-sf-and-soft-or-gi...

linked article by Nicola Griffith wrote:
Consider reviews of my second novel, Slow River (1995), in which much real estate was devoted to denouncing (I’m paraphrasing) the “exclusively and explicitly lesbian sex.” The thing is, there’s plenty of heterosex; reviewers just couldn’t see past the (to them) Othersex. Given the way they carried on, you’d be forgiven for thinking it was porn. Certainly many dykes read the reviews, thought “Woo-hoo, one-handed reading!” and bought the book. Then they sent me pissed off emails: Where’s all the sex??

Consider, too, a well-known experiment: put ten engineers in a room, three of them women. Ask observers how many are female; they will say “half.” The Other blots out the Norm. (Yes, this experiment is ancient as these things go—dating from the 1960s or 1970s, I think. No doubt observers in today’s brave new world would require as many as, gasp, four women to qualify as “half.”)
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:53 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Dave G
United States

Illinois
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jooky wrote:


Why not? Because the concept is totally alien to them. Fantasy and sci-fi elements are far more familiar to them. I would be willing to wager that an average fan of sci-fi games has seen Star Wars a lot more often than he has seen Brokeback Mountain. Sure, you will have anomalies that pop up, but they are just that, anomalies.



It's not that I think you're wrong, it's that I think you're excusing homophobia by saying "they just don't want experiences that are alien to them." For that matter, the comparison isn't between Star Wars and Brokeback Mountain--the sci-fi stuff they can only see in fiction, but there are gay people everywhere in real life.

My point isn't that the "straight white male gamers" want to play homosexual romance storylines, it's fairly obvious that this isn't the general case. My point is that if they want to avoid those things because they are prejudiced against homosexuals, it's ludicrous to prop up a shield of "the concept is just alien to them" in their defense. They're prejudiced, that's wrong, and we shouldn't be excusing them for it.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:11 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rex Manning
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Might I refer everyone to today's Penny Arcade? It may be, as they say, relevant to your interests.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Apr 1, 2011 1:53 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Matt Downey
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Looking forward to the news post once it gets up
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Apr 1, 2011 2:32 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Dave G
United States

Illinois
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Penny Arcade is always hilarious, but this may be one of my new favorites. Good stuff.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:15 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
Avatar
mbmbmb
Unexpected mention of Dragon Age 2 in an article about legal/political news related to civil unions in Delaware:

http://www.patheos.com/community/slacktivist/2011/04/08/civi...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Posted Sat Apr 9, 2011 3:49 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote

Subscribe

Categories

Contributors

Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.