I think it looks promising. There is lots of variety in the different types of monsters, there are lots of dungeon tiles and the undead dragon in the background is a good sculpt. OTOH the dungeon tiles look rather bland... this dungeon is tidier than my flat... but I guess most dungeons are.
That's definitely NOT good. I don't want to see one of the few well done and mature setting like Ravenloft reduced to a little kiddie stupid game like THIS. It's definitely not good, they are ruining Ravenloft! A true fan
I don't get you guys... what were you expecting? I mean, of course it's going to look like Descent, its a dungeon crawling game with tiles and minis.
What surprises me about this picture is the amount of stuff... I guess I wasn't expecting so many cards and tokens. I can't wait to see what they're all used for. Please give us the rulebook, WotC!
Personally, I think the 4e rules are going to shine in a board game setting...
United Kingdom Nottingham Ice-choked tower, Mondavia, Nanglangka.
forster925 wrote:
It's a dungeon-crawling game with tiles and unpainted minis, therefore it looks like other dungeon-crawling games with tiles and unpainted minis.
I'm not sure what people were expecting...
It may still be a great game.
I was hoping for a fixed map or two, inspired by the amazingly-good Ravenloft maps, and bettering the still-great map-boards included with Dragon Strike.
I was also hoping for planned RPG-diet mini-adventures - which this might still possess - rather than the "1. slap down a tile, 2. Draw card to see what's there, 3. Fight" style that the picture implies. I don't want a D&D-themed Zombies!!! game.
Still, even if the game turns out to be a shocker, I'll buy it for the dungeon tiles....
I wish the tiles dont have the interlocking jigsaw on sides, such that I could use them with my own D&D games and mix with my own dungeon tiles.
Normally I don't mind the interlocking thingies, but these tiles seem to have them on every side. Even on the sides that are supposed to be walls, the tiles have those... things. I mean, the black areas on the tiles, next to those disturbingly clean movement squares are walls, right?
I've not played Descent, but let's take a look at what's in this picture and see what we can come up with. It'll be up to the Descent-folk to tell us what's different.
1) There's a Rulebook and and ***re Book. I'm guessing Adventure Book with different scenarios.
2) Encounter deck, Monster deck, Villain cards that are bigger than the decks, a stack of encounter tiles with an Adventure tile next to it. Skulls on some of the dungeon tiles. I'm guessing skulls generate random monsters or encounters? I wonder how much of the dungeon is built ahead of time and how much is drawn randomly. (Someone commented that they even have puzzle links on the wall sides; they have to be identical shapes if they're going to be random...). I wonder if the Encounter cards will have a combination of fixed and random monsters. Clearly, each scenario in the Adventure Book has a specific end-boss "Villain" to deal with.
3) Little shields with numbers on them and massive "Healing Surge" tokens. I'm guessing there's a simplified hit-point system (maybe divided by about 5 from 4e... tracking 50 hitpoints in a boardgame would be a a pain.) For those who don't know 4e D&D, you can only be healed a certain number of times per day; each one eats a Healing Surge. This creates an extra layer of resource management.
4) Decks of character cards. Judging by the face-up Cleave, the back of the Ranger card that says "At-Will Power," the Rogue and Cleric "Utility Power" backs and the Fighter "Game Power" back, I'm guessing these are not going to be randomized (like, say, the WoW Adventure Game), but instead laid out in front of each player to represent what they can do with their attacks, as in 4e D&D. We just flip the cards down when we use them and then turn them back up when we take the right kind of rest (post-encounter or end of day). I wonder if there are "encounter" powers, complete with resting? I wonder if the builds are fixed or if you'll be able to customize your character each time with, say, two of each kind of power.
5) Adventure treasure deck. Are there specific treasures for specific scenarios? Is it something you have to find to help take down the Villain or is it a reward you get to keep for future scenarios? I know they said there's no leveling in this game, but there could be persistent treasure... maybe.
6) Slowed and Immobilized indicators that are sized to the adventurer sheets, complete with what looks like rules text. I'm totally stealing these for my 4e game.
Thoughts? Comparisons? It looks to me, just from that info, to have a lot of chunky "D&D" features.
After scrutinising the picture again, I'm really OK with the look of the components.
I'm an old school AD&D player and loved the original Ravenloft modules. Ravenloft is all about theme and tone. So long as the original feel is maintained in the adventures contained in the game, it's all good. The original maps in the modules were wonderful. Here's hoping that the new adventures have more than a passing resemblance.
On a side note, I like the little coffin tokens. I wonder what they are for?
they maybe lain over a tile with an open coffin on it (like you see in the left of the picture) and on the other side of the token could be written something like "take a treasure card" or "encouter a skeleton" again hoping for more flavour than i provided here
So Dragonborn are okay, but tieflings not? wrong world
From the way the Dungeon tiles are piled, face down, with a back printing, it looks like a draw tile, draw card game. But how do you get rooms, then? And why do you need an adventure book? If the adventures are like Descent's quests, why waste ink printing on the back of the dungeon tiles?
It clearly looks 4e inspired, and many say those rules would play well as a boardgame, no RPG. This looks like it will test that concept. WotC had better write a good set or rules, and then post them, or people are not going to drop the $100 this thing should cost.
If I remember correctly, there are supposed to be 13 scenarios. Most are random with varying goals but some use a preconstructed map. Some of the mentioned goals were to retrieve an item and escape, to kill the dracolich, to retrieve an item and use it elsewhere, and to escape after being imprisoned.
The combat was said to be inspired by 4e but more so by the miniature rules. They also said that there will be time pressure elements inspired by things like Pandemic.
BTW, the retail cost is listed at $65 and is $45.50 on thoughthammer.
Remember that this isn't the Ravenloft setting. (Much to my and other Ravenloft-fanboys chagrin). It's based on the original (1e) adventure, I6:Ravenloft (later revamped as House of Strahd (2e) and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (3e)). It's supposed to be a horror-themed adventure plunked down in an unused corner of a "normal" setting, not part of a setting that's horror-themed overall.
Thus, dragonborn.
Sad for the 'loft-heads like me. Fine for the bulk of D&D players. Completely unnoticed for the bulk of boardgamers.
There's actually a another game in this series already showing on Amazon.com. It's not even listed on Wizards yet!
If you're into D&D4e, "Ravenloft" seems like a good way to buy a cohesive set of 40+ unpainted minis. I assume the collection will be undead themed, which is sweet. I'm pretty sure i can paint up 40 minis pretty easily. I was hoping the tiles would be the same ones used for the RPG game as well, but they are interlocking. oh well.
There was a second game called "Dragonfire Mountain", maybe this one is it and they've renamed it or something... i can't find "Dragonfire" on Amazon, but it is still listed at Wizards. hmmmmm.
edit=== yup, it's "Dragonfire". I don't know why Amazon is showing it as "Ashardalon"
Checking the WOTC page for "Dragonfire Mountain", it has the same description and release date as the Amazon page. So, it looks like it may have been renamed.
I've not played Descent, but let's take a look at what's in this picture and see what we can come up with. It'll be up to the Descent-folk to tell us what's different.
Great writeup, and frankly not much here that is very Descent-like to me in terms of rules that you can deduce via game components.
If anything, this is clearly a D&D gateway. The At-Will, Utility and Game powers are spot-on with 4e. The Game power is clearly the same as a Daily power, but likely since each adventure lasts "one day" in 4e terms, you can only use these power cards once per game.
I would guess there is a rudimentary leveling system where your character starts with few cards and adds more as he progresses, just like 4e.
The 5 characters mentioned in another post is on par with the standard 4e assumption of a 5-character adventure party, but I can only suppose they need to add rules for fewer players. And I really hope that rule is not "control multiple characters."
Yes, it looks like no pencils will be necessary, and hit points will be tracked using counters, with healing surge counters being traded in once per game to receive HP back. And since an adventure lasts "one day" as noted above, there is no opportunity to gain surges back. I would also guess that the hit points received by your healing surges will be specifically told to you on your character card. No calculations necessary.
Looking at the picture again, there are only 5 Surge markers (one per player character). This tells me that you can restore your health only once per game via a Surge (in addition to potions and other magic). I would bet that you can restore to our starting HP.
I wonder if there will need to be a DM. If there is, I doubt that he will have a "kill the players" role like the Descent Overlord. It would be a simple enough matter to add some Warhammer Quest-like rules to make a DM unnecessary. I for one hope that is the case. The many Encounter cards suggest there does not need to be a DM player. Or an optional one.
The large stack of identically-shaped board tiles and the small arrows on those tiles is a dead giveaway that dungeons will be randomly generated. This is another indicator that no DM will be needed. However, it will also be a simple enough matter to create several pre-generated dungeons that a DM player could use. That may be what is inside the possible "adventure" book.
I'm pretty jazzed about this. If anything, it will provide a lot of great bits for my 4e games.
.....I'm pretty jazzed about this. If anything, it will provide a lot of great bits for my 4e games.
ditto. For the bits alone it's worth the admission price ($40+ Amazon). If it turns out to be a cool dungeon crawler as well, all the better.
What would make something like "Castle Ravenloft" more "Descent" like would be playing it with the "D&D Miniatures" rules. Anyone from www.ddmguild.com on top of this? Use the skirmish game rules for a co-op dungeon crawl. Shouldn't be too big a stretch...
For people who want to use these titles with other DnD titles, it wouldn't take much effort to snip off the puzzle sides. Then if your really motivated you take the snipped bits and turn them around and glue them in the holes.
Also I think the reason the black sides have interlocking bits is because it's probably possible the dungeon could turn into itself. Also for randomization, it would be too easy to tell what pieces would be coming next if some were missing their sides.
With all the titles and plastic bits has me excited for the game.
I am not sure why but it is the small arrows on the tiles that bother me the most.
I agree, and I also noticed that before I saw your comment. I think the reason the little arrows are just annoying is because the whole point of using designed tiles and minis is to create "atmosphere" -- and they distract from that. I also can't help but have my doubts that they're really necessary.
When I saw this pic, it was a no-brainer for me to buy it. I immediately headed over to Amazon to pre-order for 40 bucks and free shipping.
I love DnD 4e, and if nothing else, this will provide some excellent components for that. I also have 3 separate box sets for ADnD 2nd Edition Ravenloft, and the original I6 Ravenloft module. Needless to say, I'm stoked for this.
Looks like about what ever 4th edition D&D group looks like now to me. Whole bunch of miniatures going around clobbering monsters for loot with no real story.
In all honesty i would expect nothing less than a toned down version of descent that is for those on a budget. You really have to think about who is in control of WoTC and the mass market appeal they are looking for.
Could an insider subscriber fill us in on any juicy tidbits in this article?
Oops didn't realize that it was for insiders only but here is what they wrote:
"Mike Mearls, Peter Lee, and I are the proud game designers of the upcoming Adventure System line of D&D board games, and we just got an advanced copy here in the office. Castle Ravenloft, a cooperative-style dungeon crawling game for one to five players, hits the shelves in August. Check out the pictures below to see all the cool stuff we were able to fit into the box. Each time you play, the game is different, and a single adventure can be played in about an hour. A second game, Wrath of Ashardalon, debuts in November. That one features adventures built around a Huge Red Dragon. Even better, the two games can be combined for extended play. Sigh. I need to give the advanced copy back to the production people now. But in just a few short months, we can all have our own copies of the game."
Dragonborn Fighter? In a Ravenloft setting? AHAHAHAH It's a no way for me
Historically, no they werent there, but then again Ravenloft setting was a 2nd edition setting and dragonborn werent even present during that period.
Now if you think about the setting a bit more, Ravenloft is a demiplane of the ethereal. Meaning all planes come into contact with it at some point or another.
Through this logic, we can easily extend the newer settings and the content of those settings into ravenloft.
Its not much of a stretch really. so I dont see how this is a deal breaker unless of course a person doesnt really understand the nature of ravenloft.
No Kidding, A WHOLE 13 tiles? Not even using their prepainted miniatures? $65/.00 price tag? No thanks. Man, at least their Heroscpe used Painted Miniatures (recycled from the D&D Mini's game, but still WTF are they thinking here?)
In all honesty, I think visually this looks very standard, without anything screaming out Ravelnloft or gothic nightmare. It looks like a very standard set of dungeontiles, designed without alot of visual panache, that could easely be switched for standard Dungeons & Dragons dungeontiles without anyone noticing it. Such a shame, since the moody Ravenloft setting screamed out for much more atmospheric tiles with ALOT more visual detail and gothic elements:
- Where are the deep shadows to create a spooky atmosphere - Rich texturing to give the locations a withered ancient feel like one would expect from an old castle. This looks way too clean and bland. - Atmospheric light sources to cast haunting light reflections over the tiles - Gothic artifacts
I can go on for hours but I won't. Let me just say that I was hoping for alot more than this. If the game plays the way it looks I'll pass.
Feel free to take this comment with a grain of salt. As a graphic artist these things are possibly a bit sensitive, but I seem to be not the only one with these feelings, judging from the other comments above.
Does look an awful lot like Descent. 2nd that comment about gothic theme. doesn't jump out as being overly Gothic Horror in style. Looks like D&D board game with Twilight New Moon cover art I'm being a bitch, but you can almost smell the Marketing guys after shave.
No Kidding, A WHOLE 13 tiles? Not even using their prepainted miniatures? $65/.00 price tag? No thanks. Man, at least their Heroscpe used Painted Miniatures (recycled from the D&D Mini's game, but still WTF are they thinking here?)
13 Sheets of tiles drama queen. There are like 20 or 30 in that picture alone.
And like everyone has said in this thread and others it's only $40 at Amazon.
It looks a hell of a lot better than Descent in my opinion. Especially the 1 hour playtime.
Historically, no they werent there, but then again Ravenloft setting was a 2nd edition setting and dragonborn werent even present during that period..... Its not much of a stretch really. so I dont see how this is a deal breaker unless of course a person doesnt really understand the nature of ravenloft.
Believe or not, Ravenloft came out in the early 1980s. Before D&D2e. I think i played it in '84 when one of my players wanted to try his hand at DMing. He did a great job with it.
The point of Ravenloft was to drop a group of D&D characters into a gothic horror setting and see what happens. A nice change of pace. Personally, i hope to see Wizards release it as a D&D4e "Super Adventure" like Revenge of the Giants. This boardgame will help provide some of the minis needed to run a game there (and hopefully be fun on it's own merits).
Something tells me that as a boardgame, Castle Ravenloft is going to be pretty good. Maybe not up to Descent standards, but for $40+, not too bad either.
While the lack of gothic themed tile art is disappointing, I don't think its a deal breaker. I mean, realistically, we'll probably only see the Ravenloft-specific theming in:
1. The monster selection 2. The scenarios
I'd rather have those two things be Ravenloft themed than a standard "generic dungeon" theme, wouldn't you?
I think what makes or breaks this game will be how well the dungeon runs itself. Co-op game balance can be difficult to pull off and, while it might be okay for zombies to act brainless on the board, that won't be good enough for Straud.
Between this and Dungeonquest, this could be the Summer of the GM-Less Dungeon Crawl.
Its not much of a stretch really. so I dont see how this is a deal breaker unless of course a person doesnt really understand the nature of ravenloft.
Depends on what you mean by the "nature" of Ravenloft. There's the mechanical nature of it and the thematic nature of it. (Again, now we're talking about the Setting, not the adventure). As to the mechanical nature, it's an inter-dimensional bermuda triangle of sorts, that can theoretically snatch anyone from any plane, world, or time period.
But that's really just a plot device to hang the thematic nature upon. The thematic nature of the setting is D&D meets Dracula and Frankenstein: Fantasy Horror. As such, the setting strongly recommends human heroes, or nearly human heroes (those that can at least appear human) both in terms of fitting in with the locals and in terms of the psychological nature of horror. (It's hard to say what would horrify a dwarf or warforged in the same way that a human would be horrified.)
With small pockets of demihumans, the populace of the setting is >90% human. Thus, it's a bit jarring to have something as "out there" as dragonborn in the setting. It's tough to argue with the Tepestani Inquisition that they shouldn't burn that girl at the stake for witchcraft and consorting with the fey when you look like the very sort of monster that they should be raising an angry mob against.
(Not to mention that there are only 2 confirmed "real" dragons in the setting...)
Now, that's not to say that a creative DM and Player couldn't make it work. I've seen a lot of stuff that "shouldn't" fit in Ravenloft made to fit with the proper trappings. And there's also the option of brushing that aspect under the rug and just going with it, ignoring the natural response of xenophobic, sheltered NPCs when confronted by "monstrous" PCs, for the good of the game. (NOTE: this option is guaranteed to make the hardcore Ravenlofter shudder, but the Ravenloft police won't bust down your door and stop you.)
Anyway, long story short: a dragonborn could definitely find him or herself in Ravenloft (either adventure or setting), though he would certainly have a hard time living in the Setting as "normally" as he'd been used to, unless the DM was willing to compromise a bit on the thematic nature of the setting.
Keep in mind that the original Castle Ravenloft module (I6 - I still lovingly cling to my original copy) was created YEARS before the large-scale boxed setting. I6 was a 1st ed module, and the boxed set was created after 2nd ed had been around for a while (and after the sequel, the I10 module, was released as well).
I6 was pretty light on the whole gothic horror setting. It was just a big cool vampire's castle in a pseudo-Carpathian setting, heavily influenced by Neuschwanstein Castle. And it had the awesomest map in the world. About the only thing "gothic" about it was the gypsy and the Dracula-esque setup. The rest was pure D&D - 10 foot corridors and 30x40 rooms (except for that big-ass crypt in the basement - AAAHHH!)
When I look at this product, I am reminded of that module. And I hate to say it, but that single module was light years better than the whole setting that evolved from it.
On another note, the I series of modules was so freaking great!
I'm pretty excited about it. I love dungeon crawl boardgames, but Descent is a bit hard to get a group together for. If this is cool, and (relatively) quick to play, I'll pick it up.
In all honesty, I think visually this looks very standard, without anything screaming out Ravelnloft or gothic nightmare. It looks like a very standard set of dungeontiles, designed without alot of visual panache, that could easely be switched for standard Dungeons & Dragons dungeontiles without anyone noticing it. Such a shame, since the moody Ravenloft setting screamed out for much more atmospheric tiles with ALOT more visual detail and gothic elements:
- Where are the deep shadows to create a spooky atmosphere - Rich texturing to give the locations a withered ancient feel like one would expect from an old castle. This looks way too clean and bland. - Atmospheric light sources to cast haunting light reflections over the tiles - Gothic artifacts
I can go on for hours but I won't. Let me just say that I was hoping for alot more than this. If the game plays the way it looks I'll pass.
Feel free to take this comment with a grain of salt. As a graphic artist these things are possibly a bit sensitive, but I seem to be not the only one with these feelings, judging from the other comments above.
Absolutely right,
I was expecting something special but all what I see is a 1980 version of HeroQuest, why should anyone spent some money on this. Come on that is no 2010 standard...
At least I would expect the pre-painted D&D Minis, without I still have my old D&D Games, the Base Game, the Adventure Game, the Diablo D&D version, my Heroquest and a much better Descent... Come on and overwork that thing.
I was expecting something special but all what I see is a 1980 version of HeroQuest, why should anyone spent some money on this. Come on that is no 2010 standard...
So, exactly how much money do you want to spend? That many different painted minis will add at least 50% to the price and several months to the release date, with slower reprints.
The tiles are perfectly in line with their existing line of Dungeon Tiles. That is the correct cross-marketing decision.
If you want this to be Descent meets Fury of Dracula, with painted minis, you are going to be disappointed. This is the D&D intro boardgame, like so many others.
So, exactly how much money do you want to spend? That many different painted minis will add at least 50% to the price and several months to the release date, with slower reprints.
C'mon, Wizards has dozens of pre-painted D&D miniatures they could have retasked for this. Molds and paint schemes already done and waiting for a game lie this.
I was expecting something special but all what I see is a 1980 version of HeroQuest, why should anyone spent some money on this. Come on that is no 2010 standard...
So, exactly how much money do you want to spend? That many different painted minis will add at least 50% to the price and several months to the release date, with slower reprints.
If you want this to be Descent meets Fury of Dracula, with painted minis, you are going to be disappointed. This is the D&D intro boardgame, like so many others.
You may be right for the costs, but the minis are still available from WotC, it should be easy to choose some heroes and monster sculpts from their production line, or simple to produce some more with one of the next mini-release. So I really expect more than an "1980" game, ...today!
And if you're looking at the target price, we should expect more too.
But as many others told before, it's only about money, not about fans. The fans will purchase the "cheap" product for a lot of money (let's say to expansive) and they will spent a lot of more money by selling extra minis from WotC.
This release will be published for WotC, not for the fans. ...that is what makes me angry about companies like WotC or WIZKIDS or many others...
That Dracolich sculpt, with paint on it, is selling in the secondary market for around $40 by itself.
Wizards has a long history of supporting the secondary market with their collectable product. I wouldn't expect them to undermine that with a board game.
I was expecting something special but all what I see is a 1980 version of HeroQuest, why should anyone spent some money on this. Come on that is no 2010 standard...
So, exactly how much money do you want to spend? That many different painted minis will add at least 50% to the price and several months to the release date, with slower reprints.
If you want this to be Descent meets Fury of Dracula, with painted minis, you are going to be disappointed. This is the D&D intro boardgame, like so many others.
You may be right for the costs, but the minis are still available from WotC, it should be easy to choose some heroes and monster sculpts from their production line, or simple to produce some more with one of the next mini-release. So I really expect more than an "1980" game, ...today!
And if you're looking at the target price, we should expect more too.
But as many others told before, it's only about money, not about fans. The fans will purchase the "cheap" product for a lot of money (let's say to expansive) and they will spent a lot of more money by selling extra minis from WotC.
This release will be published for WotC, not for the fans. ...that is what makes me angry about companies like WotC or WIZKIDS or many others...
Yeah! Making games are CHEAP! They should really just give them away, we spend enough money on food as it is, and game designers have no family or need for income whatsoever, especially the really big ones, they have all the money they need already!
I am thrilled to be able to play a game like descent in an hour, and I like the D&D setting, and as I don't have the time for a "real" RPG, then this is just awesome welcome news, and as the little tweaker I am, I might just come up with some way to use all my D&D minis in this game too. That alone is well worth the price.
Sorry to offend, but the whining about price is just so annoying! (just as this post may be to someone?)
You may be right for the costs, but the minis are still available from WotC, it should be easy to choose some heroes and monster sculpts from their production line, or simple to produce some more with one of the next mini-release. So I really expect more than an "1980" game, ...today!
They did choose some sculpts. They're using unpainted versions of previously-released painted minis. They don't paint themselves, you know. That costs money.
Pre painted minis adding 50% tot he cost....Are you kidding?
Claustrophobia offers the tickest set of tiles with gorgeous artwork and a whole set of prepainted minis for 40 euro over here. And on top you get cool plastic dice boxes.
If Asmodee can do it for that price Wizards of the Coast should be able to match that for the same price.
The sades thing still os for me the artwork looks like Heroquest. I guess creativity is a rare thing these days...
Pre painted minis adding 50% tot he cost....Are you kidding?
Claustrophobia offers the tickest set of tiles with gorgeous artwork and a whole set of prepainted minis for 40 euro over here. And on top you get cool plastic dice boxes.
If Asmodee can do it for that price Wizards of the Coast should be able to match that for the same price.
The sades thing still os for me the artwork looks like Heroquest. I guess creativity is a rare thing these days...
There is nothing in the box in Claustrophobia. 17minis and only 2 types of enemies. Maybe 30 cards.
You are really stretching it with this comparison.
From what i understand, all the minis are previously released sculpts, unpainted. That's fine with me because some of the D&D minis have friggin horrible paint jobs on them. I'de rather pay less for a collection of them unpainted personally.
If you have ever wanted to try your hand at miniatures painting/dipping, this might be a good game to start with.
There are 5 different sculpts in the Claustrophobia box (3 good guys, 2 bad guys). It looks like there are easily 4 times that many in the pic above. 50% to the cost may be a stretch, but keep in mind that more sculpts = more paint schemes = more people to paint them = more time = more money.
Also note that the print run for this game will be far and away higher than Claustrophobia's, and that means many more minis to be painted. And while a large print run will generally lower the price, here you have a much higher proportion of manual labor involved to create one game. And, if you want to make your print run, you either lengthen the release time so you can give the same number of people more time to paint, or you throw more workers at it to get the thing done before 2014. More time is more money, and more workers is more money. So it's a lose-lose problem.
In the D&D minis game, you are paying, what, 15 bucks for 5 painted minis? OK, $3 per miniature. I count about 35 minis in that picture. 35 x $3 = $105. (That's retail). The whole gimmick of that game (and others like it), is that they are already painted for you. The minis are the whole point of the game, and the paint is the clincher to make the sale. Otherwise, who would buy it?
Prepainted minis are a luxury, not a right. Hell, minis at all are a luxury. They could have gone with cardboard counters. In this game, the minis are just another playing piece, and not the core reason you buy the game.
Claustrophobia's minis are an awesome addition, and you actually kinda need the paint to tell one good guy from the next (blond vs. black hair). But still, you are paying for it. Frankly, I think Claustrophobia is under-priced. It's an awesome game, and they should be making more per game that they probably are. But when you are startup, you have to sacrifice profit for exposure. WotC doesn't need to do that.
Dragonborn Fighter? In a Ravenloft setting? AHAHAHAH It's a no way for me
Then don't play it.
Touchy.
Not really.
Leyart isn't really contributing anything of value, merely from-the-hip emotional reactions to a *photograph*. How much more teenage cheerleader can you get?
Let's look at the *facts*, shall we? 1) 4e (which this is probably based in part on) is a solid combat system. 2) Ravenloft is a solid setting that continues to inspire- well over a decade after its inception. 3) Painted or not, WotC makes some of the best minis around, if not *the* best. 4) WotC also prints some of the best cards and game aids this side of Fantasy Flight.
Of course, that's not as easy to type as "Ewww yuk, no thanks....ewww"
WotC continues to inspire either love or hate. Never indifference. They're doing something right.
Yeah, let's look at the *facts*, I agree. 1) 4e has a solid combat system. Go out for a mindless combat or even just a fight alone against a Dracolich on Ravenloft and be sure to be used like a toothbrush for the next centuries. Ravenloft is mostly for interpretation and ROLEPLAY, it's not warcraft. 4e lacks completely of such aspects but I am not starting a flame right here. 2) Ravenloft is a solid setting that COULD continue to inspire if not misrepresented in the way it's going to be. Dragons are not that common in Ravenloft to justify the presence of a Dragonborn and maybe not even a Dracolich. 3/4) The components are top notch, nothing to argue about that but it will not be a coffin and a couple of vampires minis to make this a Ravenloft game.
Said that, I can bet you have never played a session in a Ravenloft setting and you will never do that by sticking with 4th edition. If it smells bad to me it's for a reason and the fact that WotC acquired Ravenloft licence does not mean that they will be able to mantain the feeling of a great setting that has not been made great by them and of course will never be.
This release will be published for WotC, not for the fans. ...that is what makes me angry about companies like WotC or WIZKIDS or many others...
Yeah! Making games are CHEAP! They should really just give them away, we spend enough money on food as it is, and game designers have no family or need for income whatsoever, especially the really big ones, they have all the money they need already!
Sorry to offend, but the whining about price is just so annoying! (just as this post may be to someone?)
You understand wrong, if you'r looking at my little collection I'm sure not someone who is whining to spent some money one the right game, but the target price is 65 bucks... It's your choice what you expect for your money! I expected more and I'm disappointed.
But if you know better, please let us take part, how many money will get the designer and which little part will get WotC... Would be interesting to hear the world at your side is a happy little place and everybody will be lucky at all. Maybe. Who is whining?
Prepainted minis are a luxury, not a right. Hell, minis at all are a luxury. They could have gone with cardboard counters. In this game, the minis are just another playing piece, and not the core reason you buy the game.
Well, you are talking about Hasbro, they do that because they want to sell minis and games, they sell toys, do not forget that.
The whole gimmick of that game (and others like it), is that they are already painted for you. The minis are the whole point of the game, and the paint is the clincher to make the sale. Otherwise, who would buy it?
Maybe me. Maybe I'm such a guy purchasing games just for the minis, because I'm having (unfortunately) not the time to paint by myself (and the truth, I'm not a good painter at all), I have just a little time to play some games.
bryanwinter wrote:
Prepainted minis are a luxury, not a right. Hell, minis at all are a luxury. They could have gone with cardboard counters. In this game, the minis are just another playing piece, and not the core reason you buy the game.
What is the different for you to buy this game and not an other? For me the figures (painted) would be "must have". But now it's a game I have many in my collection and the "Ravenloft" theme I could created by my own, using some of the old RPG... (Or just using some fantasy...) And I'm happy owning a lot of "luxury" games from other companies. If I understand your explanation right, all the games from FantasyFlight are Luxury Games. For some companies it seems that minis are just a standard. 2010. And for WotC, sorry but for me they are producing prepainted minis during breakfast, at lunch and to the dinner? I'm sure they producing 24:00 hours a day prepainted minis... Would it be so costworthy for them to use some of them for a game? (Don't answer, this was just sarcastic?)
And yes, we should be happy they don't using cardboard heroes... Thank you WotC. (But the thruth is, they having millions of pre-painted figures (cheap from china) but they don't won't spent some extra money for extraordinary cardboard heroes...) (This was sarcastic too.)
bryanwinter wrote:
Claustrophobia's minis are an awesome addition, and you actually kinda need the paint to tell one good guy from the next (blond vs. black hair). But still, you are paying for it. Frankly, I think Claustrophobia is under-priced. It's an awesome game, and they should be making more per game that they probably are. But when you are startup, you have to sacrifice profit for exposure. WotC doesn't need to do that.
You're right, it's an awesome game. (And I like the brother, you know the blond and the black haired guys... ) But that the reason: I'm, just I'm expected an awesome game as I heard from Ravenloft-Boardgame. But now it's just a game as many others? It is now a crime being disappointed????
If everyone is so upset that this doesn't capture the atmosphere and drama and theme of Ravenloft, then bust out your old modules and play some D&D! This is a board game, people! It's never going to fully replicate the experience of a roleplaying game!
The real meat and potatoes of this game is going to be the pure "dungeon crawl" experience without a lot of set-up, without needing a DM, and without needing 5 hours to play it. The fact that it says "Ravenloft" on the box really shouldn't be your main reason for purchasing it.
And if the fact that is says "Ravenloft" on the cover is your main reason for NOT purchasing it, then you're probably just better off playing D&D anyway.
This release will be published for WotC, not for the fans. ...that is what makes me angry about companies like WotC or WIZKIDS or many others...
Yeah! Making games are CHEAP! They should really just give them away, we spend enough money on food as it is, and game designers have no family or need for income whatsoever, especially the really big ones, they have all the money they need already!
Sorry to offend, but the whining about price is just so annoying! (just as this post may be to someone?)
You understand wrong, if you'r looking at my little collection I'm sure not someone who is whining to spent some money one the right game, but the target price is 65 bucks... It's your choice what you expect for your money! I expected more and I'm disappointed.
But if you know better, please let us take part, how many money will get the designer and which little part will get WotC... Would be interesting to hear the world at your side is a happy little place and everybody will be lucky at all. Maybe. Who is whining?
First of all, when I want a game, the price usually is'nt an issue, and by your collection you seem to be quite the same, so no, neither of us is a "price whiner" in that meaning.
Of course the designer will get the smaller bite of the apple, WotC will get the whole tree.. just like in the music industry. How bad this may seem, these things cost money for the companies too, advertising, logistics, printing, sculpting, molding, all the people involved etc... I'm sure you know what I mean. Designers, writers and storywriters, neither of these earn big bucks, but they knew that when they started, so its their choice. I sometimes work in a store that sells boardgames amongst other things, and I have some level of knowledge from distributors and designers too, I dare to say I have some level of insight on the costs in this.
In short, games are expensive!
Oh, and I am happy to say that yes, at my place everybody is happy, some of us even play GW games and joyfully spend our money on the hyperexpensive plastics they make, with a smile. We buy our games, glad to know that doing that, we all contribute to the making of more games and we spend happy happy gaming moments togheter. Sarcastic? Actually not. Over here we whine about real problems, but when someone places a high cost for a game involving hundreds of people? Really?
I could care less if the minis are painted. Scratch that, I am glad the minis aren't painted so I don't have to paint over the crappy paintjob the sweat shops give it and do it myself.
Its a board game. If its so important to have it pimped out then do it yourself like so many other people do with games they enjoy enough to labor such with.
There is no free magic paint fairy that can do this for no extra cost. No matter how cheaply WotC can get paintjobs for, its still additional money. Considering the enormous production run games like this may very well see, the time it would take to fill this order would have delayed this considerably as well.
I'm not sure if I'm interested in this or not, mostly because I'm already heavily invested in Descent and this would need to offer something different enough to be worth adding - I'll probably decide that once we have more info on it, but I do want to mention my take on the price issue:
Tentatively, I'd say that the suggested SRP looks reasonable based on other companies’ games that have similar content. I’d suggest something like LNL’s All Things Zombie; this has an SRP of $60 and has significantly less content in the box; as a better example of a game that’s probably overcosted.
If everyone is so upset that this doesn't capture the atmosphere and drama and theme of Ravenloft, then bust out your old modules and play some D&D! This is a board game, people! It's never going to fully replicate the experience of a roleplaying game!
I'm not upset, per se, just a wee bit disappointed. I'm an avid boardgame fan, and an avid Ravenloft fan. As such, there's no question of whether I'll buy it or not. I will, even if it turned out to be a rethemed Snakes and Ladders scrawled in crayon on looseleaf paper. ("Ghost of Sergei! back 3 spaces!" "Found the Sunsword, move ahead 5!") But I'm an anomaly in that aside for a few extremely rare collectibles, I own everything ever printed with the word Ravenloft on it. (Even this.)
I'm still buying it, and still hoping for a good game system. (Despite not being thrilled with 4e as a whole). I don't care much about painted or unpainted minis. But the design elements look like someone hasn't played a boardgame since 1995. Sure, you'll never capture fully the depth of a good D&D game (especially good Ravenloft D&D) in a boardgame. But the look of the game could have been more atmostpheric, while remaining a board game. Look at Arkham Horror, or Betrayal at House on the Hill (made by the same company no less), or even Zombies!!!. Any of those look creepier than this.
This is just a dungeon crawl. And that's fine for the next release, Dragonfire mountain or whatever they're calling it now. But Ravenloft is supposed to be a creepy vampire castle crawl, and I see very little of that on display, sadly.
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The fact that it says "Ravenloft" on the box really shouldn't be your main reason for purchasing it.
Well, it would be for me, but again, I'm an anomaly. I've even bought such crap as A Light in the Belfry, Champions of Darkness, Iron & Blood (for Playstation 1), the Grim Harvest Trilogy, Death of a Darklord, and Mithras Court in the name of completionism. But there are other Ravenloft fans out there that aren't completests and aren't boardgame fans who might have bought this if it looked more Ravenloft-y and less generic. So it's a missed opportunity, IMHO.
But the design elements look like someone hasn't played a boardgame since 1995.
That's a harsh thing to say given we've seen only two pictures and haven't had any previews of the rules at all. Like I said before, the co-op mechanics will be the important thing... we know the 4e rules can handle combat and, aside from some blandness and un-creepiness, there's nothing really wrong with these components. I seem to remember hearing that the designers were inspired by the co-op aspects of Pandemic, which would be a good place to start...
I am guessing the arrows on the dungeon tiles are for place like in Dungeonquest. WHne you draw a tile, the tile is supposed to connect to the current tile you are on based on the arrow.
But the design elements look like someone hasn't played a boardgame since 1995.
That's a harsh thing to say given we've seen only two pictures and haven't had any previews of the rules at all.
Perhaps, but I was speaking only of the physical/graphic design, not the rules (again, I still have hope for the rules). And since this pic is "what's in the box" I doubt there's anything hidden anywhere that's going to look any better, unless there's some very atmospheric art hidden on the other side of the cards and tiles we see in the pic. WotC cranks out some of the most consistently cool art in the business, but I don't see that on display here.
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Like I said before, the co-op mechanics will be the important thing...
agreed. Cheapass games have had great mechanics too. I'm speaking only to the look of the game, which could have been better, IMHO.
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aside from some blandness and un-creepiness, there's nothing really wrong with these components.
agreed. That's all that's wrong with them. But that's enough for me to say it missed the mark in that department.
ETA: I'm not saying it's going to be a bad game. I'm just concerned that it will be a bad Ravenloft game. If you removed the box cover and instructions from this picture, I'd say: "Cool! a neat D&D co-op board game!" but there'd be nothing that would indicate to me that it's supposed to be a Ravenloft board game and not a Demonweb Pits or Slave Lords or Underdark board game.
This is just a dungeon crawl. And that's fine for the next release, Dragonfire mountain or whatever they're calling it now. But Ravenloft is supposed to be a creepy vampire castle crawl, and I see very little of that on display, sadly.
According to information on the game, it is part of their new "Adventure System Cooperative Play" line of games with the second one being the one released in November. That being case, I suspect the tile artwork is being deliberately kept to some standard design so tiles from the various games can be used interchangably and that they are all more or less themed dungeon crawls.
IMHO painting minis is a different hobby than actually playing games. I have no painting skills therefore I prefer prepainted minis. Fans can always repaint them to customize them if needed.
It looks a mesh of HeroQuest and DungeonQuest. Lots of components... This and the fact that another compatible game (with approximately the same amount of components) is coming in November is making me drool copiously...
I've heard the 4e "mindless combat" claim before, and I'm sorry, but it's just pure emotional garbage that no one bothers to back up with any facts.
Sorry, your opinons are not fact. His has a right to his opinons as well as you have the right to yours. Your facts stem from a frigging pictures and your own playing experience. It's your fact and not anyone elses. So turn down your nerd rage.
That's definitely NOT good. I don't want to see one of the few well done and mature setting like Ravenloft reduced to a little kiddie stupid game like THIS. It's definitely not good, they are ruining Ravenloft! A true fan
Everyone keeps saying it looks like HeroQuest - I gotta tell ya, my box of HQ stuff isn't close to this packed and there's two expansions in there.
I suppose the link here is about quality, not quantity. For me, a little elephant does look like an elephant.
Even judging by the bits, it's still not very HeroQuest-like. Unless people want to count all fantasy themed games with minis set in a dungeon as HeroQuest-like.
That just seems like a completely massive, over-done, generalization. No one's even seen the rules yet, but it's automatically riffing off another game?
That's just a bit of a stretch for me.
A fairer comparison would be to Descent (the minis and array of other bits seem to have more parallels) or Dungeon Lord (at least I think that's the one with the randomly made dungeon like this game appears to be).
I completely understand that people want some way to sort, classify, quantify, or otherwise label the unknown, I just prefer to hold judgement until I know how the game actually plays.
I have to say, if this bunch of bits was named something else, produced by a different company, you'd all be creaming over it.
I used to get excited about games with lots of bits, but I've grown out of it. The more bits there are, the more maintenance (both in-game and setup/tear-down time) there is.
It's not to say that games with lots of bits are always bad. They're definitely not. It's just that the core game has to be that much better to justify the extra work.
The more bits a game has, the better the core game must be to make up for it. Consequently, the more bits a game has, the higher the odds that I won't find it worth my time. So I heartily agree with the initial post under this image -- "With each picture, I'm getting less excited."
Ravenloft is all about the roleplaying, the story and the setting. Trying to shoehorn that into a dungeon crawling game may please fans of dungeon crawling games, but I expect fans of the Ravenloft RPG will be disappointed.
Ravenloft is all about the roleplaying, the story and the setting. Trying to shoehorn that into a dungeon crawling game may please fans of dungeon crawling games, but I expect fans of the Ravenloft RPG will be disappointed.
That is ok because there are more Dungeoncrawler fans than there are Ravenloft fans!
I have to say, if this bunch of bits was named something else, produced by a different company, you'd all be creaming over it.
I used to get excited about games with lots of bits, but I've grown out of it. The more bits there are, the more maintenance (both in-game and setup/tear-down time) there is.
It's not to say that games with lots of bits are always bad. They're definitely not. It's just that the core game has to be that much better to justify the extra work.
The more bits a game has, the better the core game must be to make up for it. Consequently, the more bits a game has, the higher the odds that I won't find it worth my time. So I heartily agree with the initial post under this image -- "With each picture, I'm getting less excited."
I will say that I agree with this. But the above pic is not professionally done. The components are all spread out in a cluttered messy way. I'm thinking that it looks more bitsy than it is.
Yep, i also have to say that they are quite a few bits in this game (and who doesn´t like a few bits ) BUT it´s nothing against the whole pile of counters that is descent. I had that game for quite some time and it was just a mess to sort everything out properly and to get it back in it´s huge box. I´m with you on the fact that i like my games with less "unnecessary" things.
As i said i´m quite happy that the box will hold all the components well!
It seems to me that we can easily play this the "pen and paper" way, without all (or most) of the bits in that box. It's not like Character Sheets and writing down Hit Point and damage are totally unheard of in a game with "D&D" in the title.
A. People like what is being shown and will probably buy it (me included).
B. People don't like what they see and won't buy it, but enjoy belittling it and those that fall into category "A." gotcha.
or C. People voice concerns about Monopoly-style components that are being shown causing mild disappointment whilst harbouring the nebulous notion that come what may, this will probably end up in their collection anyway because it may actually be totally awesome after all.
As a graphic artist these things are possibly a bit sensitive, but I seem to be not the only one with these feelings, judging from the other comments above.
Nothing kills immersive atmosphere for me more than an object or feature or blood and goo and shadows printed all over my map tiles. Things like scale and theme, and worse yet imagination, can be thrown off quite a bit when these sorts of aesthetics are "hard-coded"... especially if you are anal about these things. ("hey isn't that flaming torch printed on the map tile throwing off my infravision" or "why are there skeletal remains of a 16 foot man in the center of the floor?")
I'm not saying these tiles as they appear in the facebook profile quality photo are done great, but I have no problem with things leaning a bit more open-ended and generic in these cases so I can paint the details of the room with my minds eye as opposed to being force-fed something from a graphic artists interpretation.
In this genre and game system, give me some basic walls and some stone tiles instead of over-designing any day of the week.
As a graphic artist these things are possibly a bit sensitive, but I seem to be not the only one with these feelings, judging from the other comments above.
Nothing kills immersive atmosphere for me more than an object or feature or blood and goo and shadows printed all over my map tiles. Things like scale and theme, and worse yet imagination, can be thrown off quite a bit when these sorts of aesthetics are "hard-coded"... especially if you are anal about these things. ("hey isn't that flaming torch printed on the map tile throwing off my infravision" or "why are there skeletal remains of a 16 foot man in the center of the floor?")
I'm not saying these tiles as they appear in the facebook profile quality photo are done great, but I have no problem with things leaning a bit more open-ended and generic in these cases so I can paint the details of the room with my minds eye as opposed to being force-fed something from a graphic artists interpretation.
In this genre and game system, give me some basic walls and some stone tiles instead of over-designing any day of the week.
I guess thats what the cards are for, hopefully they have saved the "atmosphere" for them.
That was the best comment in the forum. I'm not even going to waste my time throwing my take on it; there seems to be a bit too much grognardian elitism going about for one to actually be heard above the blah blah blah blah blahs.
Seeing this makes me want to play Descent. I would buy it even if it had crappy rules to get the models and perhaps some unique board options. The models could spice up my Descent game at least...
Also, being a Strahd Von Zarovich fanboy, I need to get this.
Keep in mind that the original Castle Ravenloft module (I6 - I still lovingly cling to my original copy) was created YEARS before the large-scale boxed setting. I6 was a 1st ed module, and the boxed set was created after 2nd ed had been around for a while (and after the sequel, the I10 module, was released as well).
I6 was pretty light on the whole gothic horror setting. It was just a big cool vampire's castle in a pseudo-Carpathian setting, heavily influenced by Neuschwanstein Castle. And it had the awesomest map in the world. About the only thing "gothic" about it was the gypsy and the Dracula-esque setup. The rest was pure D&D - 10 foot corridors and 30x40 rooms (except for that big-ass crypt in the basement - AAAHHH!)
This.
For heaven's sake, can we please judge the game for what it is rather than for what it's not?
We were never going to get 40 pre-painted miniatures, including a few larges and a huge, plus 13 sheets of dungeon tiles and all the other components of an entire heavily-illustrated board game for $75 retail (and originally $40 on Amazon!). I daydreamed about it too, but it's totally unrealistic. Unpainted minis are more than fair for the price.
Yes, it looks like Descent and Heroquest, but is less complex than either of them. That's the point of it; to provide a dungeon crawl board game that is played in hour-long chunks with no GM rather than in 4 hour sessions or even longer pseudo-campaigns with a GM. If that doesn't interest you or fit your group's needs, that's of course perfectly fine, but don't look down on the game for not being something it isn't trying to be.
As for it's not being Ravenloftie, roleplaying-intensive, and atmospheric enough, it's a board game for heaven's sake. It was never going to involve roleplaying. As for its including dragonborn, as the quote above points out, it's based on the original boxed set (roleplaying-lite, atmosphere-lite, somewhat gothic horror-themed dungeon crawl dropped into the middle of an ordinary fantasy setting), not the subsequent setting.
Look, I can understand being disappointed that the dungeon tiles and other components aren't more gothic and atmospheric (rather than looking just like every other D&D dungeon tile and accessory). And I can certainly understand not committing to a purchase before knowing more, especially the rules and how well the game actually plays. But it seems like some people were hoping for a 40-pre-painted miniatures, masterfully atmospheric, campaign-based, roleplaying-intensive, beautiful revival of all things Ravenloft. This game wasn't advertised as any of that, it wasn't ever going to be any of that, so please judge it for what it is, not what it's not.
Man,southernmagnus, you basically said everything I wanted to say in reply! But I will add a few comments for Luca Galli.
I have heard the same arguments before. For some reason, 4E haters believe it's nigh impossible to actually role play with 4E. How much does a DM have to suck in order for this to be true? Happy players have nothing to prove...those that say that 4E is too hard to role play need to present some proof, but the thing is, it's not actually possible to produce such proof. Maybe the criticism is flawed from inception, then?
The thing about Ravenloft is that adventurers would find themselves mysteriously transported to the realm because of the mysterious mist. Meaning the mists can transport pretty much any player character there, correct? How can this be so perplexing?
RPG's and RPG settings inspire not by feeding us every aspect of the experience bit-by-bit. We kinda have to have imaginations. For example, imagine that the mists transport a modern D&D character, say...a dragonborn, to Ravenloft. To deny that it could happen is ridiculous.
I've heard plenty about the Warcraft comparison. It's reached the status of a scripted talking point, and if anyone disagrees, they are not a REAL player. It's a textbook straw-man argument that's getting old.
Finally, don't go making assumptions about what folks have played simply because they disagree with you. Give a little bit of proof validating your claims about what is impossible with 4E and a detailed description of every setting we have played, every edition we have played, etc, or expect to be called on your BS elitist attitude. Fair enough?
If there's no role playing in your campaign it's because your DM sucks, regardless of the system.
QFT
What I think is especially hilarious when someone knocks 4e for being too combat focused, is when they're making that comparison in relationship to 3e.
Have they never actually read the 3e rules? It was all super rulesy, and focused entirely on new and interesting ways to make your character better at killing stuff.
4e just does the same thing, but way more efficiently.
As we already are totally off topic here, may I ask how a rpg such as D&D with all the wonderful background ever has to be combat focused just because the rules explain how to smash things?
It all falls to the hands/brains of the GM/DM. The rules is, after all, just a guideline for how to deal with different situations.
(And where is the wrong in killing dead ugly orcs?! )
In all honesty, I think visually this looks very standard, without anything screaming out Ravelnloft or gothic nightmare. It looks like a very standard set of dungeontiles, designed without alot of visual panache, that could easely be switched for standard Dungeons & Dragons dungeontiles without anyone noticing it. Such a shame, since the moody Ravenloft setting screamed out for much more atmospheric tiles with ALOT more visual detail and gothic elements:
- Where are the deep shadows to create a spooky atmosphere - Rich texturing to give the locations a withered ancient feel like one would expect from an old castle. This looks way too clean and bland. - Atmospheric light sources to cast haunting light reflections over the tiles - Gothic artifacts
I can go on for hours but I won't. Let me just say that I was hoping for alot more than this. If the game plays the way it looks I'll pass.
Feel free to take this comment with a grain of salt. As a graphic artist these things are possibly a bit sensitive, but I seem to be not the only one with these feelings, judging from the other comments above.
WOTC is known to provide ugly boards, like the ones they made for Star Wars Miniatures. Nice game, fine miniatures, ugly gameboards. The boards made by fans looked even (much) better!
On the look of the game, I'm not sure how Ravenlofty you can make a dungeon look aside from adding a few gargoyles on the walls. I mean, we already know it will have undead shambling around, coffins, etc. Personally, I'm looking for the Ravenloft atmosphere to come from the text. I'm hoping the cards will contain well-written descriptions that add to the RPG fantasy-horror feel.
I prefer pre-painted minis and would pay extra for them, up to 100% of the normal cost. A game like this? I'd be willin to pay $100-$120 with pre-paints. I would only do this do after extensive research on the game to ensure that I will enjoy it as a cornerstone. I'm one of those people who believes in buying something expensive that you know will last for a long time- like a 700 dollar knife set. Unpainted minis are okay too though as I have the capability to paint them, I just don't prefer to, since 16 Talisman minis took me an entire summer.
I have been eyeballing dunegon-crawl boardgames to play with the wife for a couple years now. Descent was too rule-heavy with just too much to set up. Right now, I'm watching this, DuneonQuest (solid on buying) and after reading this thread Claustrophobia. Thanks for that BTW.
Its a dungeon crawler...I don't think they made any statements to make people think otherwise. Descent is a dungeon crawler...heroquest, warhammerquest...and you know what?
They all have minis and cards on card stock boards...
Its a dungeon crawler...I don't think they made any statements to make people think otherwise. Descent is a dungeon crawler...heroquest, warhammerquest...and you know what?
They all have minis and cards on card stock boards...
It's not about being surprised, it's about the game being Descent! I mean, just look at that, it has the same theme! Total clone. Same way every property buying game is Monopoly, every farming game is Agricola, every sci/fi combat game is Space Hulk (even though we'd all like to see Games Workshop burned to the ground, and every RPG is D&D.[/sarcasm]
People aren't acting surprised, they're acting stupid. It's just more of the same old "this well known, or game that came first has a similarity so this game I've never played is obviously a copy" schlock.
Actually, I just despise WotC. So, the fact that they are trying to suck every last dollar out of D&D before they eventually execute it or move on to a 5th edition makes me sick.
Actually, I just despise WotC. So, the fact that they are trying to suck every last dollar out of D&D before they eventually execute it or move on to a 5th edition makes me sick.
"Despise"?
That's a lot of anger to direct towards a game company for making games.
Because their prime motive is not "making games". They are all about the $$$. That's it. As soon as they've sucked the life out of a line, it is terminated. Plenty of proof in the carcasses of discontinued game lines that they have left in their wake. Not to mention - the fact that they have turned D&D into a WoW/accounting hybrid.
Because their prime motive is not "making games". They are all about the $$$. That's it. As soon as they've sucked the life out of a line, it is terminated. Plenty of proof in the carcasses of discontinued game lines that they have left in their wake. Not to mention - the fact that they have turned D&D into a WoW/accounting hybrid.
It's like you're reading your WotC rage off of a script.
A) They're a game company, of course they're trying to make money.
B) Dropping a line that is not making money just means they're not idiots. The reason TSR failed is because they were trying to support too many little niche lines.
C) I'm not even sure the WoW "nerd rage taliking point" is worth the effort to respond to, but I'll give it my usual response: If you somehow feel that 4th Edition is more of a rules focused combat fest than 3rd edition, then you must have not been reading 3rd edition. 4th Edition simply streamlines the concepts of 3rd edition. 3rd edition characters were -like 4th edition characters- basically a collection of powers that gave them ways to kill stuff in combat. Nothing has changed in that regard. The difference in 4th is that it is not a freaking nightmare to build your character.
A.) Duh. I understand that it's about making money. I think that we are a community that deserves and benefits from companies that care about the games they make (that make money).
B.) I understand that dropping a line is normal, but they suck the marrow from the bones of a game, no matter how supported by the public, and when the bones are dry, they cast it aside.
C.) I don't remember mentioning that 3rd edition was any better. YOU are the one that brought up the 3rd edition. STREAMLINES? Killing a bunch of kobolds never took 45 minutes to an hour in the original or 2nd editions. The idea of the adventure in D&D was to adventure, not to spend countless minutes figuring out which power to use. And, by the way, swinging a sword isn't really a "power". WotC seems to think it is, tho.
A.) Duh. I understand that it's about making money. I think that we are a community that deserves and benefits from companies that care about the games they make (that make money).
I still don't see how you think they don't "care" about the games though. I've read blogs and listened to the interviews of the guys they have working on their DnD line, and the guys really seem passionate about this stuff.
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B.) I understand that dropping a line is normal, but they suck the marrow from the bones of a game, no matter how supported by the public, and when the bones are dry, they cast it aside.
Seriously what RPG company doesn't do this. That's the business model for RPGs:
Come out with a product.
Make as many supplements for it as you possibly can.
Make a new edition when you can't sell more supplements.
WotC didn't invent this. Any successful RPG maker was using this model (from White Wolf to Paladium) long before WotC.
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C.) I don't remember mentioning that 3rd edition was any better. YOU are the one that brought up the 3rd edition. STREAMLINES? Killing a bunch of kobolds never took 45 minutes to an hour in the original or 2nd editions. The idea of the adventure in D&D was to adventure, not to spend countless minutes figuring out which power to use. And, by the way, swinging a sword isn't really a "power". WotC seems to think it is, tho.
The WoW = DnD argument seems to come from people who think 3rd is better than 4th usually, because generally people who thought AD&D was better have long since moved on with their lives.
That said, OD&D (and to a greater extent, AD&D) was a poorly thought out mess of conflicting sub-systems that you would usually ignore half the time in a game because they were so useless.
The reason it was fun was entirely what people brought to the game, not the game itself. The actual game itself (in my opinion) was not really that interesting. Fights usually consisted of "I attack, the other guy attacks, I attack, the other guy attacks".
If you wanted a rules light system focused on the story and adventure there were far better systems out before WotC came along.
3rd edition brought to the table a more crunchy system where fights were more like an actual game and assumed RPing was something the players provided. Either that was your cup of tea or it wasn't, but it was an alternative to more "purist" roleplaying games like Vampire where you would have books mostly giving you condescending essays on the "correct" way to RP.
And making swinging a sword a "power" was a stroke of genius on WoTC's behalf.
Ultimately whether you were swinging a sword or casting a spell, it ultimately came down to being a method of dealing damage. Accepting this allowed them to find more interesting design space for Fighters so that being a fighter didn't just come down to "I roll to hit, I roll to hit, I roll to hit."
Maybe that's the biggest issue I have with WotC. They have morphed the interactive experience that I loved into a tactical miniatures game. If I wanted that, I could play Warhammer. Another major problem I have with 4E is the leaning towards computerization of the game. A laptop is a great tool to aid the DM, but when every one of the players is spending more time looking at their character "sheet" on their laptop, there is NO interaction and frankly, it's a drag. Not to mention that the game is a virtual slog-fest once dailies and encounters are gone. We'll have to agree to disagree, but something has been lost along the way. If I wanted to play an RPG with my friends on the computer, I'd restart my WoW subscription. That isn't schlock, that's a fact.
When I've played 4e I've never really used any of the electronic stuff they offered anyway since you don't actually need it to play.
I have used my laptop as a way to organize notes in different RPGs I've played, but honestly there isn't much difference between having a bunch of Word documents with notes written on them and just having a traditional paper notebook with notes.
If you have people using their laptops to go check Facebook instead of focusing on the game, that is another issue entirely, but worrying about whether someone has a real paper character sheet or is using an electronic one is kind of a bunch of technophobic nonsense.
A character sheet is a character sheet is a character sheet. The game itself is still being played "on the table" between the players and in their imaginations.
Have you seen what they are doing with MM 3. Should resolve some of the slogfest issue at higher levels.
Doesn't solve issues at lower levels tho. Not to mention the fact that 4e was so broken when it came out that every splatbook has had revisions to one rule or another because this game was broken. Stealth rules, skill challenges, etc. Another thing - skill challenges? How about negotiating with the NPC via ROLE-PLAYING instead of half a dozen dice rolls? Ridiculous. You can see how well loved 4e is, when people are selling their 4e stuff at pennies on the dollar and 3e books are getting their original cover price (or more) most of the time.
If you have people using their laptops to go check Facebook instead of focusing on the game, that is another issue entirely, but worrying about whether someone has a real paper character sheet or is using an electronic one is kind of a bunch of technophobic nonsense.
Actually it does matter. First off, the laptops are all on tray tables - facing AWAY from the game table. Why, you ask? Because the space in front of each player is littered with cards. In addition, people ARE checking their facebooks, or the latest scores. I am in NO WAY a technophobe. I love technology, but there are certain venues where it should be limited. Hanging out with one's friends is one of those venues.
If you have people using their laptops to go check Facebook instead of focusing on the game, that is another issue entirely, but worrying about whether someone has a real paper character sheet or is using an electronic one is kind of a bunch of technophobic nonsense.
Actually it does matter. First off, the laptops are all on tray tables - facing AWAY from the game table. Why, you ask? Because the space in front of each player is littered with cards. In addition, people ARE checking their facebooks, or the latest scores. I am in NO WAY a technophobe. I love technology, but there are certain venues where it should be limited. Hanging out with one's friends is one of those venues.
And that still seems to be a problem with players, not the game.
If your friends have total ADD and can't stay focused on a game because of MySpace, then just ban the laptops.
4th ed. doesn't actually require any of the electronic stuff.
Also, if someone has to keep their laptop off the table because the stuff they're using to game with is taking up too much space, then they're really not making good use of their laptop anyway since the whole point is to have all that stuff on their computer so that they aren't taking up a bunch of space.
Some of these anti-4E arguments amount to people making choices to do things other than play D&D. I hate distractions during a game, too, but since distractions have been around since the game was invented. Removing the laptop from the table isn't going to make people that aren't very into the game stop being distracted. This is a DM issue; if he/she is losing players to distractions...TV, iPod, Facebook, cellphone, fidgeting with dice, talking about things not related to the game...it might just be 1. Bad DM skills, or 2. You have jerky, rude friends.
Besides that, a laptop is an option. I've yet to have a laptop touch my game table since AD&D. The only "technology" that has proven a distraction would be the dice in the hands of new players, and that is gone after the novelty wears off.
If you want to role-play instead of do skill checks, go ahead. You are totally free to do so! My groups have ignored rules we don't like from each edition. It's not a new concept to have house rules or to ignore them.
Please post some links in which people are selling their 4E stuff for pennies on the dollar...seriously, I'll take some off their hands if it's in good shape.
About the "swinging a sword" being a power. The term "power" can be taken as a synonym for a "skill" limited to a particular class. If you don't think that it takes skill to wield a sword, then you should have a beef with every edition of D&D from the beginning. If it's no big deal, then why were Magic-users unable to "swing a sword"? Why were clerics unable to "swing a sword"? That's a pretty weak little jab you took, and you know it. You just wanted to redirect the conversation by purposely getting hung up on semantics.
Maybe that's the biggest issue I have with WotC. They have morphed the interactive experience that I loved into a tactical miniatures game. If I wanted that, I could play Warhammer.
Anyway, I think this is the main issue here. 4th ed. is just not the kind of game you like.
If you just learn to accept this I think most of your "despising" of WotC will fade away.
Personally I don't consider Race for the Galaxy to be the kind of game I enjoy playing, but I don't despise Rio Grande games for making it, I just don't go out of my way to play it.
Some people like a little bit of tactical miniatures with their roleplaying. It's not the wrong way to RP, it's just one way of doing it. If anything it's a return to DnD's roots in tactical wargaming.
Please post some links in which people are selling their 4E stuff for pennies on the dollar...seriously, I'll take some off their hands if it's in good shape.
Just go to eBay and see. I have dumped most of my 4e stuff. I still have some posted if you want to come and take it off of my hands.
Anyway, I think this is the main issue here. 4th ed. is just not the kind of game you like.
If you just learn to accept this I think most of your "despising" of WotC will fade away.
Personally I don't consider Race for the Galaxy to be the kind of game I enjoy playing, but I don't despise Rio Grande games for making it, I just don't go out of my way to play it.
Some people like a little bit of tactical miniatures with their roleplaying. It's not the wrong way to RP, it's just one way of doing it. If anything it's a return to DnD's roots in tactical wargaming.
Yup, that's why I don't play it anymore. I miss hanging with my friends for D&D, but glorified accounting just isn't what I want to do in my free time. I've accepted it and no, it isn't making me dislike WotC any less.
Bringing up that sort of example (ie RftG) is irrelevant. It's not like RftG was a fun game and RGG came along and morphed it into a sick mockery of what you once loved. That's what they have done with D&D.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with tactical. Just saying that the idea of ROLE-PLAYING is not to shuffle through your power cards, worrying about conditions, add all your bonuses and take an hour to kill half a dozen kobolds. 4e is going to have its defenders, and I understand that, but I think its catering to the MMO crowd and turning what was once a wonderful gaming experience of exploration and fun into work. Plain and simple.
I think its catering to the MMO crowd and turning what was once a wonderful gaming experience of exploration and fun into work. Plain and simple.
None of my players are in the MMO crowd and neither am I and still we are having a wonderful time exploring the world and having fun
From your comments I understand that you haven't played 4e, because most of your assumptions are wrong except the one that encounters take a bit more than it should but there are ways to change that.
There are a lot of great RPGs out there and I hope to find the time in my life to play more of them. But it's bad manners and a waste of your time to trash games that other people like to play.
By the way what is your opinion about Earthdawn 3e?
Great job with the derailing here, guys. No, really.
Seriously? Have you looked at how many comments are on this single picture? Where's the derail? They're discussing things related to the picture and the game it is a picture of in a place where a massive number of posts have already been made.
I think you need a new hobby if trying to make people feel guilty is all you've got.
EDIT: A few minor stats - your post is number 153, which would be the third post on page seven if pictures organized their comments like threads here are - you also might want to note that the picture is two months old today, and that pretty much all of the comments have been like the supposed derailing you're trying to scold. Thanks for playing though.
Just go to eBay and see. I have dumped most of my 4e stuff. I still have some posted if you want to come and take it off of my hands.
Cool...send me your eBay handle. I'll take a look.
I checked out eBay in general, but there are many, many different RPG books being sold at really low prices. Pick your edition. Is this really an indicator of the popularity of a RPG?
Great job with the derailing here, guys. No, really.
Hey, that's my bad, man. I'm sorry I took part in the derailment of a thread in which you were so active and engrossed. Because, after all, there was so much more to be said about this unreleased game that hasn't been said already.
Who knows where this might have gone if you hadn't intervened. Gosh.
I think its catering to the MMO crowd and turning what was once a wonderful gaming experience of exploration and fun into work. Plain and simple.
None of my players are in the MMO crowd and neither am I and still we are having a wonderful time exploring the world and having fun
From your comments I understand that you haven't played 4e, because most of your assumptions are wrong except the one that encounters take a bit more than it should but there are ways to change that.
There are a lot of great RPGs out there and I hope to find the time in my life to play more of them. But it's bad manners and a waste of your time to trash games that other people like to play.
By the way what is your opinion about Earthdawn 3e?
You are wrong. I have played 4e and plenty of it. To say that the encounters take a "bit" longer is a massive understatement.
I loved the original Earthdawn. In fact, I'd play that in a minute over most RPG's, especially the drek that is 4e.
I checked out eBay in general, but there are many, many different RPG books being sold at really low prices. Pick your edition. Is this really an indicator of the popularity of a RPG?
No it isn't. Unless it is within the RPG. When you see the latest edition books being dumped en masse and the previous edition's books being bought for cover price, there's something being said there. Add to this the fact that WotC's D&D site traffic has plummeted and I'd say that means something as well.
I think its catering to the MMO crowd and turning what was once a wonderful gaming experience of exploration and fun into work. Plain and simple.
None of my players are in the MMO crowd and neither am I and still we are having a wonderful time exploring the world and having fun
From your comments I understand that you haven't played 4e, because most of your assumptions are wrong except the one that encounters take a bit more than it should but there are ways to change that.
There are a lot of great RPGs out there and I hope to find the time in my life to play more of them. But it's bad manners and a waste of your time to trash games that other people like to play.
By the way what is your opinion about Earthdawn 3e?
You are wrong. I have played 4e and plenty of it. To say that the encounters take a "bit" longer is a massive understatement.
I loved the original Earthdawn. In fact, I'd play that in a minute over most RPG's, especially the drek that is 4e.
A ''bit longer'' from what satisfies me is not a massive understatement! Is my personal opinion
And I guess you are kind of a 1st edition person when it comes to RPGs, that's cool.
Still I prefer people telling me why they love a game, not why they hate the game I like or play.
Great job with the derailing here, guys. No, really.
Seriously? Have you looked at how many comments are on this single picture? Where's the derail? They're discussing things related to the picture and the game it is a picture of in a place where a massive number of posts have already been made.
I think you need a new hobby if trying to make people feel guilty is all you've got.
EDIT: A few minor stats - your post is number 153, which would be the third post on page seven if pictures organized their comments like threads here are - you also might want to note that the picture is two months old today, and that pretty much all of the comments have been like the supposed derailing you're trying to scold. Thanks for playing though.
Actually with Captain Cosmic on this one, at least the previous posts were vaguely about this game. I imagine a good number of people are interested in this because they don't have time for full rpgs anymore. Now it's all D&D 4e ranting? Take it to rpggeek and give us all a rest.
I think it's important to note who is designing this game. These are RPG writers, not board game designers. I foresee this as being a lite RPG/dungeon crawl played on a board, but, I don't really consider that to be a "board game". It might not suck, but I have a strong feeling it will.
Oh guys, as long as the game is funny, and it's a dungeon crawler (and not a miniature battle game such as descent which is a great game but not a dungeon crawler) I'll buy it. If I want to play Ravenloft with atmosphere and so on, I go and play AD&D 2nd edition. This is a boardgame and I'm happy!
Late to the thread, but the interview with the designers says that this will be a GM-less game, with the monsters' actions printed on the encounter card, in a sorta AI behavior. Specifically, the monster will do such-and-such depending on what the characters do.
I think this is a great piece of boardgame ingenuity. Many BGG'ers looking for a coop game do *not* want a GM, but still want a dungeoncrawl experience.
Weird. We are working on a explorer game with a simmilar "AI" sort of mechanic. (Not as complex though Im guessing) The idea though goes all the way back to games like Intruder and Wreck of the BMS Pandora which had methods of determining where a creature would go based on location and type.
I wonder if there are any more games like that. hmmm.
As for Castle Ravenloft. Tiles look good. Whoever it was that was claiming there was only 13 tiles was obviously either trolling or just failed to see the stack of tiles by the side of those laid out. As for why they would have connectors on all sides. Secret door placement comes readily to mind. But more importantly. Looking at the design it seems allmost as if all the tiles interconnect to form agradually larger board such that the interlocks are there to anchor tiles passing by. Thats just a design guess though. The arrows on the tiles are a minor detraction. But if they serve an important function then its ok.
The Miniatures look fine. Oddly I tend to like unpainted figures more. Painted is nice and all. But tends to jack the price tag exponentially sometimes, or just end up no so good other times.
As for those comparing this to Heroquest. Have you actually looked at Heroquest? Apparently not. Heroquest was a game with a single static board that was altered in minor ways by what rooms were accessible or not by placement of blocker tiles on the board. This game looks more like Warhammer Quest and seems it will play GM-less like WHQ too.
As for not being Ravenloft. Note the name of the game. Castle Ravenloft. This strongly suggests that they are basing off the original AD&D modules and not off the Demiplane of Dread campaigh setting. I suspect those looking to the campaign setting will be a little or a lot dissapointed. But there is really no way of telling until either the developers give more info. Or the game is on the shelves.
Looks neet. Also looks unfortunately like its intended to be allmost too short a game to really ever interest the local gaming group here. We'll wait and see how that develops. But the designer notes so far arent encouraging on that front.
Sam and Max wrote:
Late to the thread, but the interview with the designers says that this will be a GM-less game, with the monsters' actions printed on the encounter card, in a sorta AI behavior. Specifically, the monster will do such-and-such depending on what the characters do.
I think this is a great piece of boardgame ingenuity. Many BGG'ers looking for a coop game do *not* want a GM, but still want a dungeoncrawl experience.
No Kidding, A WHOLE 13 tiles? Not even using their prepainted miniatures? $65/.00 price tag? No thanks. Man, at least their Heroscpe used Painted Miniatures (recycled from the D&D Mini's game, but still WTF are they thinking here?)
I think HeroScape is the perfect example of the shift in economic reality over the past few years. Look at what came in the big box master sets over that period:
2004 Return of the Valkyrie: 30 figures in 30 casts 2007 Swarm of the Marro: 24 figures in 15 casts 2010 Battle for the Underdark: 10 figures in 10 casts
The terrain in the boxes follows that same trend.
The days of inexpensive painted figures are over. One of these years you'll be telling younger people how cheaply you bought that stuff in pretty much the same way I reminisce about buying wargames for 5 bucks retail.
Oh no, it's the I'm-Smarter-Than-You-Nerd, complete with his typical snarky comment at the end of his sentences, like, "Try harder next time," "Nice try though," or "Thanks for playing!"
Oh no, it's the I'm-Smarter-Than-You-Nerd, complete with his typical snarky comment at the end of his sentences, like, "Try harder next time," "Nice try though," or "Thanks for playing!"
I knew anybody with Rick Moranis in their avatar couldn't be all bad.
And can ya really blame me for joshing ya when you're adding to a month old and finished conversation?
Nah, believe me, man, I'm just kidding around. I couldn't help myself earlier when I saw these, "OMG! This game looks terrible, I'm a REAL Ravenloft fan, I would know!" That stuff....
