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Insane Kobold of Doom
United States
Kentucky
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I'm trying to make a RPG. I know this is a board game site, but I'm sure that some members here roleplay. My question is:what do you look for in a roleplaying game, and what do you avoid?
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Chris Talbot
Canada
Fort Smith
Northwest Territories
Be seeing you... -Alphonse
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That's a rather broad question. It's kind of like asking what do I look for in a board game. I look for them to be fun and worth my time playing, although I have purchased RPGs several times just to read (something I wouldn't do for a board game).
The thing is there are different types of RPGs with different styles, different types of mechanics (task resolution versus conflict resolution versus scene resolution, for instance). What I see in one RPG that looks neat may look less neat in a different RPG, though.
BTW, you may also be better asking RPG design questions at a forum dedicated to RPGs or RPG design, such as www.rpg.net, www.gamecraft.7.forumer.com or www.indie-rpgs.com.
Chris
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Phillip Heaton
United States
Springfield
Virginia
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The first problem you face is that a good role-playing experience is defined by the game master. The players are important too. The ability of the game master to develop a style that appeals to the players is crucial to a good role-playing experience. The rules don't matter that much, in my experience. That said, you should look for a genre that isn't being done, or at least isn't being done well in your opinion.
To answer the question you asked, I look for an interesting genre or world. I once game mastered Bureau 13, even though the rules were horrible, just because the premise was so good. I ended up using another rule system to run it, but everyone enjoyed the game world.
I avoid yet another _____ game, without a compelling world or theme to interest me. I already play both D&D (high magic) and GURPS fantasy (broad magic), which satisfy different styles of fantasy gaming for me. The only other fantasy rules system I'm interested in is Rune Quest, which I enjoy for the world of Glorantha, not the rules system.
In over thirty years of role-playing, I have bought many systems, yet I only play a few of them. I play and DM D&D for much of my fantasy gaming, and I play and GM GURPS for the rest of my role-playing. These two systems satisfy my gaming needs. I do play other things, usually when an enthusiastic game master gets me involved.
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Insane Kobold of Doom
United States
Kentucky
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Quote: It's kind of like asking what do I look for in a board game. I look for them to be fun and worth my time playing,
Right, but what I mean is:what kind of play style appeals most to you. Just like I could ask about board games. Do you prefer games with lots of stats and dice, or games with more focus on realism, or a game with deep plot?
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John Anderson
United Kingdom
London
England
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Wow, that's a really broad question. There has been so much written on RPG theory in the last decade alone that has tried to tie that question down. I've never tried to write my own RPG, but I have been playing for a good 30 years now and I while I know what I like, I would hate to presume to give advice on what to write. However, check out the following links to RPG theory forums where alot of creative energy goes into trying to resolve just the question you're asking.
The Forge.
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/
Some hate them, some love them. Take them on their merits for what they're trying to do. At the end of the day alot of great RPGs have come from their stable. (Sorcerer, My life with master, the shab-al-hiri roach, Dogs in the Vineyard etc)
Story Games Forum.
http://www.story-games.com/forums/
Newer on the block and, as the name suggests, concentrating more on the story-games aspect.
The RPG site.
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums
One of the more vocal anti-Forge sites but also looking at RPG design from a more traditional approach.
NerdNYC Forum
http://www.nerdnyc.com/forum
Forum for the New York city RPG community with a very good RPG Theory sub forum.
This has really only touched the tip of the iceberg, there's a lot more out there including blogs and 'Indie' small press websites with loads of ideas and advice. As I think of more I'll put them on here.
But, whatever happens, good luck and happy writing.
John
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Jeff Yeackle
United States
San Luis Obispo
California
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The system doesn't really matter to me, because I hardly ever use them when I GM a game. I prefer good source material that's flushed out in some core areas, but left open in others to make adding onto it a breeze.
When it comes to personal preference, here are the systems I like and the order I like them in:
1. Fuzion (Interlock) used in Cyberpunk 2013/2020
2. Warhammer Fantasy Role Play percentile & combat system.
3. Chaosium's percentile system (used in Call of Cthulhu, Hawkmoon, Elric, etc)
4. West End Game's D6 system used in Star Wars (and several other titles)
Most of these don't get in the way, which is key for me. A rules heavy system usually gets in the way of story telling, and can cause/allow players to react in the story in abstract ways. The D6 system can get dice heavy though. I really like Interlock's State + Skill + Die system which works great as long as I don't let the players min/max on player creation or when leveling up their characters.
These systems don't model realism, but allow me to achieve realistic outcomes when I need to. Another great game that didn't take off sadly was Castle Falkenstein. About 3/4s of the book was resource material, with a clever playing card system that flowed with the game play.
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Take joy from you wins; take lessons from your losses.
United States
38.978164N 76.486881W
Maryland
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ctalbot wrote: That's a rather broad question. It's kind of like asking what do I look for in a board game. I look for them to be fun and worth my time playing, although I have purchased RPGs several times just to read (something I wouldn't do for a board game). The thing is there are different types of RPGs with different styles, different types of mechanics (task resolution versus conflict resolution versus scene resolution, for instance). What I see in one RPG that looks neat may look less neat in a different RPG, though. BTW, you may also be better asking RPG design questions at a forum dedicated to RPGs or RPG design, such as www.rpg.net, www.gamecraft.7.forumer.com or www.indie-rpgs.com. Chris
The ability for your character to advance and grow. The character needs to be able to get stronger, more versatile, and more capable with time. This in my opinion is the key to all good RPG systems, and the reason Dungeons and Dragons is still played 35 years after its invention.
If your character doesn't change, it becomes stale. You need to have something to work towards.
Sag.
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Douglas Bushong
United States
La Porte
Indiana
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RPG's are different from other board games specifically because they are so theme intensive. The mechanics are background elements, and should be transparent. Ironically, this is the very reason why it is difficult to "make an RPG" that's anything more than a simple set of mechanics. If the mechanics are decent, you could strap virtually any theme to them.
That's why the D-20 system was such a success: it's a single set of game mechanics that allows for virtually any theme to be adapted to it.
Generally, it's not enough to simply say "I want to make an RPG/CCG/CMG/etc." If you want your game (or anything else that you produce in life, for that matter) to excel, you need to define the quality that separates yours from all of the other RPG's out there. For every D&D/Magic/HeroClix, there are hundreds of similar systems that came and went because they didn't innovate. You must ask yourself "why would anyone use my system over D20, GURPS, RIFTS, etc. What am I bringing to the table that is new and unexplored?" When you have an answer to that question, then you are probably ready to make an RPG system. Until then, don't waste your time repeating what has already been done.
Doug
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Martin
United States
San Diego area
California
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Philgamer wrote: The first problem you face is that a good role-playing experience is defined by the game master.
So true. The only games I've been motivated to play based on their descriptions were D&D, Twilight 2000 (back when that was a long time away), and Traveler. Based on the quality of the DM I've played Shadowrun and Fudge (I think...it was something with a Space Pope) with much success.
(hopefully our Fudge DM will be along soon to give his well-practiced "he's wasn't the Space Pope" line)
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Alexander B.
United States
Austin
Texas
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While I generally agree with most of the above comments about "the GM determines the game" in RPGs, and that setting and detail stuff is more useful to me than a system (since I have used many and don't care much which one I use as I bend then to fit in any case), I recently found a real exception to this rule (for me at least) that caused me to rethink some of this thinking.
The exception: Battlestations. This RPG (and yes, for me that is what it is) introduces mechanics and a method of play that, while similar to other systems in many ways, comes together to help create an experience that I'd not be able to do with any other system: including if I tweaked it.
What is so special? Really, it is how the bridge of the ships can be used to fly around, and the impact that this flying has on the crew. Also, the way that the roles intermesh. These come together to create an experience that, while not particularly realistic, requires a kind of skill and teamwork that goes beyond the kinds of choices usually required to be made in RPGs.
It is *indeed* the fact that the system draws a bit from board games that is a good part of what causes this to happen.
In any case, to the OP, I'd suggest looking at Battlestations and trying to see how these guys did it. If you can figure out their "formula" and apply it to another genre (won't be easy, I can guarantee it), then you might have a system that has something to offer that hasn't been done 100 times before and is really beside the point of RPGs, as has been pointed out very well in this thread.
Good luck! 
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Insane Kobold of Doom
United States
Kentucky
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Quote: 2. Warhammer Fantasy Role Play percentile & combat system.
3. Chaosium's percentile system (used in Call of Cthulhu, Hawkmoon, Elric, etc)
Great, I hope I haven't ripped of another system. Mine uses percentile dice. The GM determines the chance of succeeding an action based on the character's Skill and Trait levels(on a scale of 0-5, 5 being the best), and then gives a number like 55. If you roll lower than a 55, you pass.
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Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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EonTai wrote: Quote: 2. Warhammer Fantasy Role Play percentile & combat system.
3. Chaosium's percentile system (used in Call of Cthulhu, Hawkmoon, Elric, etc) Great, I hope I haven't ripped of another system. Mine uses percentile dice. The GM determines the chance of succeeding an action based on the character's Skill and Trait levels(on a scale of 0-5, 5 being the best), and then gives a number like 55. If you roll lower than a 55, you pass.
Yes, this is the old Chaosium system, used in Call Of Cthulhu and the others.
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Jeff Yeackle
United States
San Luis Obispo
California
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EonTai wrote: Great, I hope I haven't ripped of another system. Mine uses percentile dice. The GM determines the chance of succeeding an action based on the character's Skill and Trait levels(on a scale of 0-5, 5 being the best), and then gives a number like 55. If you roll lower than a 55, you pass.
In Warhammer FRP (WHFRP), you roll against your stats. Most stats are a percentile, and you just roll against those. Some stats are a single number, like toughness and strength. They can add or subtract to things (like damage), but when doing a check you do a 10 multiplier so a toughness of 4 becomes 40% for test purposes. In combat, you roll against weapon skill or ballistic skill. If you succeed, you then reverse the roll to determine the location. Then usually you roll a D6 for damage and add/subtract modifiers from there.
For Chaosium's system, it's mostly skill based (I might have a rifle skill of 44% or a lockpick of 33%, etc). You role percentile against your skills. Most of your stats however are a variation of 2D6 or 3D6 (+/- a modifier) when generating your character and they are then used to determine other stats as well (which do check against a percentile).
So I wouldn't worry, your system sounds pretty different from these two.
In Cyberpunk (Interlock), the GM sets a target difficulty, you add the stat (1-10), skill (1-10), and a D10 roll. In Star Wars, the GM picks a target difficulty, and the player rolls D6s. They might have a blaster skill of 4D6, or a pilot skill of 2D6+2. You just add 'em all together and compare.
Both WHFRP and the D6 system use an exploding D6 concept. When you roll a 6, you keep rolling it until you don't roll a 6. Each is a bit different in the hows and whys, but it's used to represent critical success (D6) or lots of damage (WHFRP). In the D6 system, it's only one die from all those you roll (usually a different colored die). It's called the wild die, and rolling a 1 on that die also means something bad happened.
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Insane Kobold of Doom
United States
Kentucky
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Thanks for all the advice, guys
If I wanted to find playtesters, should I post the rules in the Undeveloped Prototype entry, or would I have more luck with The Forge(of which I am a member?
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Douglas Bushong
United States
La Porte
Indiana
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The thrust of what I was getting at above was that it doesn't matter if you make a great role-playing game system. We have a lot of great systems already, so there's no reason to switch from the standards if there's nothing new to offer.
The goal has to be creating something altogether new. Richard Garfield saw collectible cards and card games and made the connection between the two. WizKids saw miniatures and collectible card games and made the connection between the two. The makers of Dungeoneer saw the RPG and the CCG, and made the connection between the two(I know, I know. They didn't invent the RPCG. They just did it best).
If you really want to do it, that's great, but there's got to be something that your game provides that no other game can.
One interesting approach would be to mesh RPG's into computer and wireless technology (see Reiner Knizia's Monopoly: Stock Exchange). It could be a system that allows your players to keep track of their characters on a portable device, trade their items with the DM and with other players via the wireless connection, etc. It could use an algorithm to divvy up experience instantaneously based on the level of participation of the character in the adventure. Further, it would allow the Game Master to more easily keep individual information at the individual level. One of the difficult tasks of creating a game system is making it simple enough for players to use it without taking 10 minutes on each attack roll. With the computer doing the work, you can introduce a lot more variables, and have a lot more "behind the scenes" stuff going on that the players never see.
Anyway, that's just a suggestion. Whatever you do, though, you are really going to have to wow people if you want them to use your system.
Doug
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'Bernard Wingrave'
United States
Wyoming
Ohio
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EonTai wrote: My question is:what do you look for in a roleplaying game, and what do you avoid?
This probably isn't what you want to hear, but....
I have already familiarized myself with a certain RPG enough to know I like playing/running it. So when I look at other RPGs, I look for adventures/modules/encounters and avoid rulebooks. If an adventures looks cool and has the potential to be converted relatively easily to the RPG I know, then I'm interested.
My advice? Create excellent adventures -- full of plot, detail, internal consistency, suspense/mystery, motive, mood/theme.
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Jesse Acosta
United States
Spokane
Washington
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bwingrave wrote:
My advice? Create excellent adventures -- full of plot, detail, internal consistency, suspense/mystery, motive, mood/theme.
I'd second that. There are already enough roleplaying systems out there, that our rpg needs are covered. All that's needed are some good adventure books, etc.
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Insane Kobold of Doom
United States
Kentucky
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Nomadik wrote: bwingrave wrote:
My advice? Create excellent adventures -- full of plot, detail, internal consistency, suspense/mystery, motive, mood/theme.
I'd second that. There are already enough roleplaying systems out there, that our rpg needs are covered. All that's needed are some good adventure books, etc.
So does this mean I should go with my other idea of a simpler system used in Choose-your-own Adventure style books?
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Christopher Brandon
United States
Lynnwood
Washington
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Check out the adventures from Dark City Games. They are solo or multiplayer adventures like the old Death Test ones for Melee (excpet with better story lines!)
They are gaining a following becuase no DM is necessary and the combat plays out tacticaly on a battle map just like melee/ wizard. The systems is easy and the adventures are fun.
Worth a look certainly.
Cheers
Christopher
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Richard Pakpreo
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
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What I look for in an RPG is:
1) ease of system to both use and explain.
2) freedom of system to customize
3) storyline or basics of storyline/setting
4) explains most situations that may arise and ability to solve like grappling.
5) Not broken.
I like the D20 system/Gurps system because I am able to build my own stories from a numerous set of resources. D&D is ok as it provides a great background and great basic core rule sets, but it tends to be horribly broken. Whitewolf tends to have the same problem of brokenness. The brokenness in Whitewolf just seems to lead to unbelieveability of the story. Rifts... wasn't very well explained for rules and the GM that I had run that game made up his own rules to modify it and it worked out better. RPGs are the same as board games in that the rules should be clear and the system not broken or as broken. But RPGs rely on GMs to make the system work. I would ask RPG sites about their opinions as they are more inclinded to play than boardgamers.
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Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
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As a DM (almost never a PC) I look for a system that has plenty of options and allows me to create my own world. Options for the players as well as for me. I'd prefer it if combat didn't take up more than 80% of the game, and especially if you can somehow prevent combats from getting longer and longer the more powerful the characters and monsters are.
I have a bias to medieval fanatasy but that mainly because thats whats done...
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Insane Kobold of Doom
United States
Kentucky
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If medieval fantasy has been done, does this mean I should draw my fantasy sources from unused mythologies, like Japanese mythology?(and it seems all things Japanese are steadily gaining popularity in the US) I've also considered taking a whimsical fantasy approach(think Alice in Wonderland and other light-hearted fantasy stories. Talking trees, rocks, etc.)
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Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
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I wouldn't say medieval oriental fantasy is an under-represented genre either, particularly in the Japanese line. Maybe I should have been clearer- I like what has 'been done' because I can get my mind round how the world works and so run the game imaginatively and smoothly.
As for humour, its great for the occasinal one-off session but I think it has problems as the basis for an ongoing campaign. Of course, turning an originally humourous setting into something darker and more serious might work.
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Insane Kobold of Doom
United States
Kentucky
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I've also considered an Earthbound style setting in a modern era. Magic is replaced with telekinesis, and monsters with aliens
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Kevin H.
United States
Crescent City
California
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Let me second (third? fourth?) the recommendation that you check out The Forge and Story Games. Especially, I would recommend reading Ron Edwards' essays "Fantasy Heartbreakers" ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/) and "More Fantasy Heartbreakers" ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/10/).
The Forge has an entire section where you can post initial thoughts and get feedback, in addition to playtesting forums.
You might find the following also worthy sites:
One Thousand Monkeys, One Thousand Typewriters ( http://www.1km1kt.net)
Iron Game Chef ( http://www.game-chef.com)
Essentially, I think it's really, really hard to write an RPG that's worth playing. So many RPGs have been made that most consider simply cheap knockoffs of the major players (D&D, CoC, Hero, etc.). You need to work hard to provide a genuine reason for people to play your game. If your game boils down to "it's like D&D, but more realistic!" then there's no reason to play your game -- "more realistic D&D" has existed under various names since the late 70s; what are you going to bring that's actually new and noteworthy? An experience that's 10% different than D&D is not enough to make any D&D players care, nor is it enough to catch the attention of people that don't like D&D. If you have a neat fantasy world, great -- but will it really provide a significantly different experience than the hundreds of published fantasy worlds, not to mention every homebrewed world I could come up with on my own?
Also, you need to figure out what your game is about. And I don't mean setting; I mean what experience/question/premise your game will fundamentally address. Do you want your game to be about noble sacrifice? The price of sticking to one's principles? What is worth dying for? The awful responsibility of moral judgements? (If your answer is "all of the above! whatever the GM and players want!" then I suggest you pack it in and get a copy of GURPS or Hero.)
Finally, research! You need to read and (ideally) play lots of RPGs. Your actual reading list will depend on what specifically interests you, but here's an off-the-top-of-my-head list of what I consider "required reading" RPGs for anyone interested in significant developments in the hobby. Warning, may reflect my biases. In no particular order:
- Dungeons & Dragons
- Call of Cthulhu
- Paranoia
- Over the Edge
- Unknown Armies
- Everway
- Pendragon
- Ars Magica
- Sorceror
- Dogs in the Vineyard
- Primetime Adventures
- Dying Earth
- Polaris
- HeroQuest
- Burning Wheel
I don't mean to discourage you; far from it! I think that the RPG hobby (as opposed to the industry) is better now that it's ever been. The quality of the games and the games we have to pick from blows me away. But writing a good RPG is hard work! I've tried (and failed) several times. Good luck to you!
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