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Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
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Totally agree on the storage (we use silicon muffin cups here).
No idea why you need the player mat though. The game simply doesn't need it, to my mind. Buildings go here, my chits go here. Only look at the line corresponding to the number of players on the round card.
As for the discs, I'd rather they were big pawns. Easier to grab from a distance from someone else's building, etc.
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WhiteKong wrote: I ALMOST missed out on this gem of a game because I mis-interpreted what many had said about Le Havre. From reading the rules and the other reviews, Le Havre seemed like a long, drawn out, fiddly game, with little tension or player interaction.
Same here. I got coaxed into my first game of Le Havre this weekend, even though I was kind of wary. As you say, the rules certainly don't make one start salivating for a first play. Also, having witnessed a 3+ hour 3-player game of it from a distance didn't boost my enthusiasm.
But Le Havre is good. In fact, given the choice, I'd now rather sit down to a game of it over Agricola.
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David Smidt
United States
Littleton
Colorado
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You hit it on the head with this review. I too was pleasantly surprised and find myself wanting to get it to the table soon after playing. Oh, and here's an extra
 for the Attactix reference. Great store run by great folks!
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Железный комиссар
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
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Quote: An important strategic note: I played this with a lot of folks who played Agricola many times first. In the first game, many of them were hung up on trying to feed their workers every round without having to take a loan. Although I haven't played nearly enough times to develop any strong strategies, it seems like if you don't build any buildings in Le Havre, particularly early, you're going to get beaten badly. I'm sure there is a "non-building" strategy that one can employ to win, but I doubt it would be easy to pull off, particularly in the first game. I think one should stress that loans are ok. They aren't nearly as bad as the begging cards in Agricola, and in many cases may provide significant short-term advantages.
I'm glad you included this note. I think the assumption that loan cards are re-themed beggar cards can ruin the game for new players without them even knowing it. If you take loans recklessly and without a sense of how they fit into your plans, they'll hurt you, but they're not designed to punish players for poor play. They just aren't. You'd never need to tell people if Agricola weren't the default lens through which to view Le Havre.
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Chris Ferejohn
United States
San Francisco
California
Pitying fools as hard as I can...
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I think that the thing is with Agricola you can read through the rules and get the basic idea of what you do in the game. You've read through basic actions, you know what you have to do to build a house, get animals, plow fields, etc. You might not know all the cards, but the cards are basically ancillary to the core game play.
In Le Havre, in contrast, the cards are basically the game. The rules are pretty much "take an offer space or use a card". If you don't know what all the cards are, that's going to look like not too exciting of a game. However, once you've seen how the standard buildings all work together, you can see how a game generally flows and start to appreciate how special buildings and the order in which the standard buildings come out can effect the game.
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Yes, and Agricola is far more intuitive in that everyone understands the way to grow vegetables (get seeds, dig dirt, plant) and breed animals (get two, ideally of the opposite sex).
But Le Havre is another matter. I don't know how to turn iron into steel beams. And even when the card that did the process was on the table, I certainly wasn't aware that energy ("Coke? Does that even burn?") was necessary.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
Germany
Hanover
Lower Saxony
Stalker!!!
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Tremendously great review!!
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G. Gambill
United States
Shawnee on Delaware
Pennsylvania
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I couldn't agree more with this review. In fact, I enjoy this game MUCH more than Agricola (which I like as well), but I just think this is better. For one thing, I like the fact that there are SO many options open that even if someone takes what you want, you can usually come up with a very good plan B quickly. In Agricola, if someone takes the bake bread action when you really needed it, you may be totally stuck. That almost never happens in Le Havre.
Also, I love the fact that this game seems to let you build an economic engine, and then (gasp!) you have a round or two to let her fly! In Agricola, by the time you get your farm set up, the game is OVER, and you just hope you didn't miss planting a veggie, or getting a cow along with your pigs and sheep. There's no time to ENJOY what you've built. There is in Le Havre, and this is just one other reason why I love this game!
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Darrell Perrins
United Kingdom
Wallingford
Oxfordshire
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Hi Brad, thanks for the review and comments (& GG) for the player boards, glad you like them. I use a pawn in each player color to mark the round progress on their mat. So when I am running the game I flip the ship card then tell everyone to advance their round marker one space. You can see my round marker pawn on the pic of the player mat here ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/476951).
I keep hearing of new storage solutions - the games' other big problem is chit storage I agree - but all from the US and I can't get them in the UK. I have some plastic boxes, they're good but not perfect, still on the hunt for the perfect solution.
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Darren Dew
United States
Savannah
Georgia
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garygarison wrote: ...breed animals (get two, ideally of the opposite sex).
HAHAHAHAHA!!
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Plague World Cylon
United States
Shelton
Connecticut
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Great review! I also prefer Le Havre to Agricola despite the potentially longer play time.
Small footnote: It is possible to win without lots of buildings. The Shipping Line provides the other major strategy, i.e., shipping goods. Get ships, get energy, get (more) expensive things to ship and voila! Generally speaking, this isn't a good strategy to emphasize for someone's first game. (Side note: Style points for having your own improved Wharf and having the Shipping Line.)
Also, it's possible to win and still feed your people. The shipping strategy works well with feeding since, as you gain ships for later use in shipping, you also reduce your food costs. If you can avoid taking loans, then all of your shipping is profit and you don't have to consider "wasting" actions on loan mitigation (e.g., Court House) or coins on interest.
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Железный комиссар
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
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Alan Stern wrote: Great review! I also prefer Le Havre to Agricola despite the potentially longer play time.
Small footnote: It is possible to win without lots of buildings. The Shipping Line provides the other major strategy, i.e., shipping goods. Get ships, get energy, get (more) expensive things to ship and voila! Generally speaking, this isn't a good strategy to emphasize for someone's first game. (Side note: Style points for having your own improved Wharf and having the Shipping Line.)
Also, it's possible to win and still feed your people. The shipping strategy works well with feeding since, as you gain ships for later use in shipping, you also reduce your food costs. If you can avoid taking loans, then all of your shipping is profit and you don't have to consider "wasting" actions on loan mitigation (e.g., Court House) or coins on interest.
I've played games where I've shipped 120 points in Grain/Cattle (4 shipments). Certainly that was a big chunk of my score!
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Pete Lane
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
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We just picked up the game from the big Tanga blowout and I was shocked at how much I enjoy it. We're not Agricola fans in the slightest, but the replayability and customizable setup really helps give this one a new life. Also, last game we played with 3 players went pretty quickly... I think people are scared away from this because of the threatening long playtime... but honestly, unless your group has some awful AP issues, it shouldn't take any longer than most thicker in thought games.
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Chris Wood
United States
Wheaton
Illinois
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What happened to this review? I'm missing the first page!
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Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
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Users delete their accounts, and everything they've ever done disappears.
I positively hate that policy, for precisely this reason.
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Железный комиссар
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
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Myoman wrote: What happened to this review? I'm missing the first page!
The user who wrote this had the BGG username of WhiteKong. He had authored many well-regarded reviews and also some keen strategy articles. One of his final postings on BGG said, in effect, that he had reached some kind of breaking point with regard to his involvement with the internet (not just BGG, but the whole web) and was resolved to minimize his presence and activity anywhere on it.
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