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Pete Hooper
United States
Machesney Park
Illinois
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I notice on the manufacturer's website, they make a big deal about how rare dice are more valuable for trading. Now, this is obviously true for any collectible game with varying rarity levels, but the way they stress it (even to the point of having a section of the site dedicated to 'grading' dice) makes me wonder if they are (intentionally or not) involved in manipulating the collectors' market.
Please note, I am not accusing anyone of anything, just wondering out loud, and looking for other people's thoughts.
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Terry Egan
United States
Waltham
MA
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My guess is this has absolutely nothing to do with the secondary market and everything to do with product sales. Without the rare dice, there's no reason ever to buy additional Irondie after buying some or all of the starters. The hunt for rare dice will have some people ordering the expansion sticks and cubes in which the rare dice can be found. Same principle as with CCG's ... the hunt for rares drives sales, while secondary market prices are just an unplanned consequence of this structure.
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Jeffrey Nolin
Japan
Nakamachi, Hiroshima
Hiroshima-ken
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While some individuals with access to the process may manipulate such to their advantage, it seems like a legitamate business model to encourage sales with the enticement of rare dice if the more expensive products are purchased. My question is that, even though the dice themselves are very cool, why would anyone want to involve themselves in a system that is so expensive with minimal chance that others locally would get involved so that you'd actually be able to play the game?
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Jeffrey Lee
North Carolina
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Hello All,,
Anyone seriously collecting Irondie as a potential"investment" would be much better served buying the older limited series versus the newer unlimited edition. The older sets were limited at a total of 50K dice. These 50K of dice were broken down into the 72 common dice and then further broken down for another 72 dice of rares, so 144 total dice.
If memory serves, somewhere on this forun, Davide mentioned that there were only between 25-30 (I want to say 27/28) of each rare limited dice that were made.
Limited rares are hard to get, but there were generally more of them in the boxes. Also, from reading how the new dice boxes are made, it does not sound like unlimited rares are that much easier to find.i.e. one per box. Seriously, I have no idea of what the production runs of the unlimited will be, but I imagine it will be somewhere around what market can saturate.
-Diceslinger.
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Cameron Chien
United States
Rancho Cucamonga
California
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nightglider1 wrote: Now, this is obviously true for any collectible game with varying rarity levels, but the way they stress it (even to the point of having a section of the site dedicated to 'grading' dice) makes me wonder if they are (intentionally or not) involved in manipulating the collectors' market.
Actually, the "grading" section has nothing to do with rare dice, just dice in general. It's not different than a Beckett's guide showing you what grade a baseball card would be, depending on the amount of wear and tear on the card.
Cameron
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Pete Hooper
United States
Machesney Park
Illinois
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Zeede wrote: nightglider1 wrote: Now, this is obviously true for any collectible game with varying rarity levels, but the way they stress it (even to the point of having a section of the site dedicated to 'grading' dice) makes me wonder if they are (intentionally or not) involved in manipulating the collectors' market. Actually, the "grading" section has nothing to do with rare dice, just dice in general. It's not different than a Beckett's guide showing you what grade a baseball card would be, depending on the amount of wear and tear on the card. Cameron
I'd buy that argument if the pictures and descriptions weren't limited to their own product. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and hoping what seems like market manipulation is actually poor choice of words. If I'm not mistaken, English isn't their primary language, correct?
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Cameron Chien
United States
Rancho Cucamonga
California
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Uh, they are the only ones making anything like IronDie, so who else's product are they supposed to be showing?
It's a collectible game, and like most of them there are rare versions of the game components.
I am totally not understanding where this "manipulating the secondary market" crap is coming from...
Cameron
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Pete Hooper
United States
Machesney Park
Illinois
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Heck, one could even use the example of "Dragon Dice" as an alternate product.
As regards the manipulating the secondary market "crap", as you say, it comes down to the use of the following phrasing on their website: "Consequently, the collecting and trading value of a Rare die is higher than that of Common die."
Now, that's obviously the case in anything like CCGs, sports cards, etc., but it should only be up to the secondary market to determine that. A manufacturer/publisher should not take a position on an item's value past the recommended retail price.
Again, I am not accusing anyone of anything illegal or unethical, and I acknowledge that the problem may lie in translation.
FWIW, I have no stake whatsoever in IRONDIE. I saw an ad, thought the dice looked cool, and went to their website for more info. That's where I encountered the troublesome (to me) phrasing.
It's obvious that we see things differently, but I'm OK with agreeing to disagree.
Best,
Pete
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Magnus Karlsson
Sweden
Eskilstuna
Unspecified
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I don't think I understand you, might be another language problem...
But if I do understand you, if Wizards (Magic the Gathering) would mention that their mythic rare cards usually are worth more than their rare and that their rare cards usually are worth more than their other cards they would be guilty of market manipulation? But they aren't since they don't say it?
If Irondie suggested second market prices for dice I could maybe understand your point, but just saying that rare dice are worth more than common dice?
I'm rather sure that you havn't played the game, you should check up what a rare really means in this game, it's not a different kind of die and it does not have any other kind of effect than a common die has, it just have a higher chance of it's "bad luck, but good luck" effect of happening.
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Pete Hooper
United States
Machesney Park
Illinois
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Jern wrote: I don't think I understand you, might be another language problem...
But if I do understand you, if Wizards (Magic the Gathering) would mention that their mythic rare cards usually are worth more than their rare and that their rare cards usually are worth more than their other cards they would be guilty of market manipulation? But they aren't since they don't say it?
Not exactly, but kind of.
I should have stated up front that I spent many years in the business of selling comics and games at retail. When I see a manufacturer mention trade values (even in general) as well as providing guidelines on how to grade the product for the secondary market, it rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's my reluctance to hand that sort of power to the manufacturer. To me, the retail and secondary markets (along with the consumer) are the ones that should be responsible for driving that market.
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Magnus Karlsson
Sweden
Eskilstuna
Unspecified
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Ah, I'm guessing then that you're used to primary considering unread comics in sealed plastics as an commodity?
Not meant as an insult, but I rather read the comic, or in this case play the game.
Playing the game also means getting a good "deck". With guidelines about fair trades in the quality of the dice the website helps people, just like a site about coin quality would.
I'm sorry but it's just your topic "Does the manufacturer have a stake in the secondary market?" thats rubs me the wrong way.
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Pete Hooper
United States
Machesney Park
Illinois
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Jern wrote: Ah, I'm guessing then that you're used to primary considering unread comics in sealed plastics as an commodity? God, no. I want to weep whenever I see or hear someone buying stuff and never reading/playing it.
Quote: Not meant as an insult, but I rather read the comic, or in this case play the game. As do I.
Quote: Playing the game also means getting a good "deck". With guidelines about fair trades in the quality of the dice the website helps people, just like a site about coin quality would. I understand that, I just feel that it's not the manufacturer's place to set such policies.
Quote: I'm sorry but it's just your topic "Does the manufacturer have a stake in the secondary market?" thats rubs me the wrong way. I can see that it might. I won't say I wasn't trying to draw interest.
Best,
Pete
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Cameron Chien
United States
Rancho Cucamonga
California
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Ah, I understand better where you're coming from, Pete. I too found the title of the thread really inflammatory, since almost everyone writes off IronDie without even playing it once they see the price.
I personally have no issue with a manufacturer saying such-and-such product is more valuable. A lot of them do so, whether explicitly or not, like Lexus cars or Rolex watches.
Barely anyone owns IronDie that the manufacturer can "manipulate" the secondary market all they want, it won't matter since hardly anyone even has the dice 
Cameron
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Hi all
the only thing we manipulate is hot zamak and other alloys. No, honestly we don't even have the time to "manipulate market", infact we entered a partnership with GreenLakeGames for distribution and setting the price policy etc. We focus on producing, creating and fixing. To us making Limited version is not a good deal, infact it was created to check if the game worked and to market-test it, aware of the fact we would be loosing money in the beginnning. The Unlimited is the core product and machine cast is the way when we can invest in new molds.
Any new "Limited" version we are developing for new shapes will have a much higher cost than original "limited", due to the cost of metals and manual casting.
Hope this makes sense to you.
best to all
D
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the rare dice was a later addition to the original rule set and expressely created to meet two needs:
- further improve some dice precious look
- give the hardcore gamer a "plus" to make the difference (very limited indeed) over a casual collector.
Still the rare was conceived to be very slightly better and not unbalancing, infact specialized (common) dice are better for play. (check rules).
You can buy a couple basic set and make a competitive set, no need for rares to win. Rares can add to it but can't win the game alone, and sometimes can be a limitation as you can have only 3 of them in a set.
Rares can be limiting set flexibility: some people play with 3 rares in the sidedeck just to realize they have to take out a rare from their set to switch them in.
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Nathan Morse
United States
Powell
Ohio
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IRONDIE wrote: specialized (common) dice are better for play. (check rules). This is truth, and surprised me to realize it through play. I'm glad of it, though. The rares are truly for collectors or people who need to squeeze out every bit of advantage they can get.
…and they're very, very pretty.
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