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I just finished up this game on isotropic, 2 players. Overall, a very strong collection of cards: Chapel, Embassy, Governor, Highway, Hunting Party, Rabble, Remodel, Stash, Walled Village, and Wishing Well
Looking at that, there's obviously a few cards there to build around. I've known for a while that Governor is overpowered, but this game was possibly the most ridiculous I've seen. Here's how it played out, names and faces are changed to protect the innocent:
(Me's first hand: 5 Coppers.)
(Opponent's first hand: 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.)
— Me's turn 1 —
Me plays 5 Coppers.
Me buys a Governor.
(Me draws: 2 Coppers and 3 Estates.)
— Opponent's turn 1 —
Opponent plays 3 Coppers.
Opponent buys a Chapel.
(Opponent draws: 4 Coppers and an Estate.)
— Me's turn 2 —
Me plays 2 Coppers.
Me buys a Chapel.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Chapel, a Governor, a Copper, and 2 Estates.)
— Opponent's turn 2 —
Opponent plays 4 Coppers.
Opponent buys a Silver.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.)
— Me's turn 3 —
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... drawing 3 cards.
... Opponent draws 1 card.
Me plays a Chapel.
... trashing 2 Coppers and 2 Estates.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Chapel, 3 Coppers, and an Estate.)
— Opponent's turn 3 —
Opponent plays 3 Coppers.
Opponent buys a Silver.
(Opponent draws: 4 Coppers and a Silver.)
— Me's turn 4 —
Me plays a Chapel.
... trashing 3 Coppers and an Estate.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: 2 Coppers, a Governor, and a Chapel.)
— Opponent's turn 4 —
Opponent plays 4 Coppers and a Silver.
Opponent buys a Gold.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: a Chapel, an Estate, and 3 Coppers.)
— Me's turn 5 —
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Chapel.
... trashing 2 Coppers.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Chapel, a Governor, and a Gold.)
— Opponent's turn 5 —
Opponent plays a Chapel.
... trashing 3 Coppers and an Estate.
(Opponent draws: 3 Coppers, a Gold, and a Silver.)
— Me's turn 6 —
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Chapel, a Governor, and 2 Golds.)
— Opponent's turn 6 —
Opponent plays 3 Coppers, a Gold, and a Silver.
Opponent buys a Gold.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: a Copper, 2 Estates, a Gold, and a Silver.)
— Me's turn 7 —
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... Me trashes a Chapel.
... Me gains a Remodel.
... Opponent trashes an Estate.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays 2 Golds.
Me buys a Governor.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Remodel, 2 Governors, and 2 Golds.)
— Opponent's turn 7 —
Opponent plays a Copper, a Gold, and a Silver.
Opponent buys a Gold.
(Opponent draws: 2 Coppers, a Gold, and 2 Silvers.)
— Me's turn 8 —
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Remodel.
... trashing a Gold.
... gaining a Province.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Remodel, 2 Governors, and 2 Golds.)
— Opponent's turn 8 —
Opponent plays 2 Coppers, a Gold, and 2 Silvers.
Opponent buys a Province.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: 2 Coppers, 2 Silvers, and a Chapel.)
— Me's turn 9 —
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... Me trashes a Gold.
... Me gains a Province.
... Opponent trashes a Copper.
... There's nothing for Opponent to gain.
Me plays a Remodel.
... trashing a Gold.
... gaining a Province.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Remodel, 2 Provinces, a Governor, and a Gold.)
— Opponent's turn 9 —
Opponent plays a Copper and 2 Silvers.
Opponent buys a Highway.
(Opponent draws: 2 Coppers and 3 Silvers.)
— Me's turn 10 —
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Remodel.
... trashing a Gold.
... gaining a Province.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: 2 Provinces, 2 Governors, and a Gold.)
— Opponent's turn 10 —
Opponent plays 2 Coppers and 3 Silvers.
Opponent buys a Province.
(Opponent draws: a Province, 3 Golds, and an Estate.)
— Me's turn 11 —
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... Me trashes a Gold.
... Me gains a Province.
... Opponent trashes nothing.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Remodel, 3 Provinces, and a Gold.)
— Opponent's turn 11 —
Opponent plays 3 Golds.
Opponent buys a Province.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: 2 Provinces and 3 Silvers.)
All Provinces are gone.
Me wins!
Now, obviously, this is a bit of a perfect storm. I started off 5/2, my opponent did not. He did not get a single Governor. I managed to draw pretty damn well through the game (so I didn't have to use Governor to draw more than once). But still.....11 turns. I might have to add that to my mental list of cards to avoid on random sets since they just kill the game.
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Matthew Cordeiro
United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island
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I think even without the governor, this was a strong set of kingdom cards. There was only one attack card, which neither of you purchased, so this was bound to be a fast game anyway.
The governor is a good card, but I don't think fast is necessarily equivalent to good or overpowered. Almost every time you use the governor, you opponent gets a little boost, too. That makes the game even faster. There are a lot of 5-cost cards that are attacks, which slow the game down, but I think those are really good, too.
An 11-turn game is really fast. I don't know if I've played one that fast. Then again, I've never really counted. I play all my Dominion games FTF. But, doesn't smithy+BM end a game in an average of 14-15 turns? I would think a governor/chapel opening, or just about any opening of chapel plus a non-attack $5 card would have an average of maybe 12-13 turns. This is just a hypothesis on my part since I'm not at the level of play where I'm running simulations and tracking stats.
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Mark Judd
United States
Mapleton
Utah
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FYI, Governor/Chapel is the 4th best opening overall, only topped by Mountebank/Chapel, Tournament/Chapel, and Mint/Fool's Gold.
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=All+cards
There are only 9 Governor openings total that are better than average. On the other hand, there are 96 Chapel openings that are better than average. Maybe Chapel is the overpowered card to avoid here, not Governor.
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Ryan McLelland
United States
Draper
Utah
Don't touch me!!!
Hi! How are you?!?
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Yeah this is more an indication against chapel than it is against governor.
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BT Carpenter
United States
Reston
Virginia
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Isn't this a case of CHAPEL being a problem, not Governor?
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cordeiro wrote: But, doesn't smithy+BM end a game in an average of 14-15 turns?
Any game without Colonies and/or a strong attack will go 14-15 turns. This went 3 turns shorter than that.
Beaveman wrote: FYI, Governor/Chapel is the 4th best opening overall, only topped by Mountebank/Chapel, Tournament/Chapel, and Mint/Fool's Gold. http://councilroom.com/openings?card=All+cardsThere are only 9 Governor openings total that are better than average. On the other hand, there are 96 Chapel openings that are better than average. Maybe Chapel is the overpowered card to avoid here, not Governor.
Interesting, I hadn't looked at that list since Governor came out. I feel like Mountebank/Chapel shouldn't be as high up there as the others. It's 2 terminal actions (which is going to sometimes lead to both being drawn together) and if there's a Chapel, your opponent can also work on Chapeling away the Curses/Coppers you give out. Compared to that, Tournement/Chapel, Mint/Fool's Gold, and Governor/Chapel all synergise well together, being able to be played both on the same turn (and in Mint/Fool's case, work off of each other). But I know where that list comes from, so that's probably more a weakness in how I'm thinking than the actual facts.
As for the comparison of how many openings are above average, I think that's more a matter of how many good $5 and $4 opening cards there are, compared to how few good $2 good openings. So if you limit yourself to 1 good $5/4 and say, "OK, now find a good $2 to tack on," that's going to be much tougher than saying, "here's the best $2 card in the game, go ahead and pick a $4/5 card."
Chapel is powerful, some say overpowered, but I've never seen it, with any other combo I've used it with, cause a game to run out nearly this fast. As a comparison, I have had multiple games with Governor which have gone 12 turns.
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V L
United States
Virginia
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Another nice combo with governor is Apprentice. Trash a gold for 6 draws. And if you played Governor for golds a lot, you should have plenty to trash into provinces with Governor. My friend took 5 Provinces in one turn using this.
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Matthew Cordeiro
United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island
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sybrwookie wrote: cordeiro wrote: But, doesn't smithy+BM end a game in an average of 14-15 turns? Any game without Colonies and/or a strong attack will go 14-15 turns. This went 3 turns shorter than that.
That's why I followed up that original statement with this one.
cordeiro wrote: I would think a governor/chapel opening, or just about any opening of chapel plus a non-attack $5 card would have an average of maybe 12-13 turns.
If 14-15 turns with a very basic strategy is the benchmark, I would expect a game where you open with chapel and a non-attack $5 card to play even faster than the benchmark. I would expect 12-13 turns, but with enough plays, you're bound to hit an outlier, say, 11 turns.
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Chris Dieckmann
United States
New York
New York
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I have to agree that it's the chapel not governor that looks overpowered in this setup. But that isn't really a new discovery though is it?
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V L
United States
Virginia
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Also, Governor for draw 3 +1 action is sweet. There's a reason why this power is rare and/or comes at a cost.
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Looks like game has a very good chance of ending slightly earlier, if you used your first Governor on Turn 11 for cards?
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NtNScissors wrote: Looks like game has a very good chance of ending slightly earlier, if you used your first Governor on Turn 11 for cards?
At that point, I knew I was winning and if I hadn't gained a Gold with the first one, I would have had 2 Golds left in my deck.....and 5 Provinces. At that moment, I was more making sure I could have ended it turn 12 than anything else.
But yes, in hindsight, if I knew that I would definitely have gotten that Remodel in my next 3 cards (or alternately, one of my other Governors + one of my 2 remaining Golds), I could have Remodeled a Prov to a Prov to run the pile out.
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Dave Goldthorpe
United Kingdom
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Bishops, council rooms, governors, embassies, and vaults all accelerate the game and you get fast finishes for all players. This doesn't mean the cards are overpowered. If your opponent had bought an early rabble or embassy they might have been able to buy a province every turn afterwards using your gifted silver.
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Arman Khodaei
United States
California
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Yesterday, I ended a Governor game in 10 turns! I think that is my personal record for fastest win.
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Well, just had the a similar situation as Arman, of course it took a bit of luck (starting 5/2) and the right setup, but again, Governor and Chapel were the 2 cards which did it. Again, names and faces have been changed to protect the innocent:
#1 Me: 30 points (5 Provinces); 10 turns
opening: Chapel / Governor
[14 cards] 4 Governors, 2 Fishing Villages, 1 Chapel, 2 Golds, 5 Provinces
#2 Opponent: 18 points (3 Provinces); 9 turns
opening: Fishing Village / Chapel
[14 cards] 3 Fishing Villages, 1 Moat, 1 Spy, 5 Silvers, 1 Gold, 3 Provinces
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trash: a Chapel, 3 Golds, 6 Estates, a Silver, and 14 Coppers
Game log
Turn order is Me and then Opponent.
(Me's first hand: 3 Estates and 2 Coppers.)
(Opponent's first hand: an Estate and 4 Coppers.)
— Me's turn 1 —
Me plays 2 Coppers.
Me buys a Chapel.
(Me draws: 5 Coppers.)
— Opponent's turn 1 —
Opponent plays 4 Coppers.
Opponent buys a Fishing Village.
(Opponent draws: 2 Estates and 3 Coppers.)
— Me's turn 2 —
Me plays 5 Coppers.
Me buys a Governor.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Governor, an Estate, and 3 Coppers.)
— Opponent's turn 2 —
Opponent plays 3 Coppers.
Opponent buys a Chapel.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: a Chapel, an Estate, and 3 Coppers.)
— Me's turn 3 —
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays 3 Coppers.
Me buys a Fishing Village.
(Me draws: 2 Estates, a Chapel, and 2 Coppers.)
— Opponent's turn 3 —
Opponent plays a Chapel.
... trashing an Estate and 3 Coppers.
(Opponent draws: a Fishing Village, 2 Estates, and 2 Coppers.)
— Me's turn 4 —
Me plays a Chapel.
... trashing 2 Estates and 2 Coppers.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Fishing Village, a Chapel, and 3 Coppers.)
— Opponent's turn 4 —
Opponent plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Opponent plays 2 Coppers.
Opponent buys a Silver.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: a Chapel, a Silver, and 3 Coppers.)
— Me's turn 5 —
Me plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Me plays a Chapel.
... trashing a Copper.
Me plays 2 Coppers.
Me buys a Fishing Village.
(Me draws: a Gold, a Governor, an Estate, and 2 Coppers.)
— Opponent's turn 5 —
Opponent gets +1 action and +$1 from the Fishing Village.
Opponent plays a Chapel.
... trashing 3 Coppers.
Opponent plays a Silver.
Opponent buys a Moat.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: a Fishing Village, 2 Estates, a Silver, and a Copper.)
— Me's turn 6 —
Me gets +1 action and +$1 from the Fishing Village.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... (Me reshuffles.)
... drawing 3 cards.
... Opponent draws 1 card.
Me plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Me plays a Chapel.
... trashing an Estate and 3 Coppers.
Me plays a Gold.
Me buys a Governor.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Gold, 2 Governors, a Copper, and a Fishing Village.)
— Opponent's turn 6 —
Opponent plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Opponent plays 2 Silvers and a Copper.
Opponent buys a Gold.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: a Moat, a Gold, a Chapel, a Silver, and a Copper.)
— Me's turn 7 —
Me gets +1 action and +$1 from the Fishing Village.
Me plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Gold and a Copper.
Me buys a Governor.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: 2 Golds, a Chapel, a Governor, and a Fishing Village.)
— Opponent's turn 7 —
Opponent gets +1 action and +$1 from the Fishing Village.
Opponent plays a Moat.
... drawing 2 cards.
Opponent plays a Chapel.
... trashing an Estate and a Copper.
Opponent plays a Gold and 2 Silvers.
Opponent buys a Province.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: a Moat, a Gold, an Estate, and 2 Silvers.)
— Me's turn 8 —
Me gets +1 action and +$1 from the Fishing Village.
Me plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... drawing 3 cards.
... Opponent draws 1 card.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... Me trashes a Gold.
... Me gains a Province.
... Opponent trashes an Estate.
... Opponent gains a Fishing Village.
Me plays a Chapel.
... trashing a Copper.
Me plays a Gold.
Me buys a Governor.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Province, a Gold, a Chapel, a Governor, and a Fishing Village.)
— Opponent's turn 8 —
Opponent plays a Moat.
... drawing 2 cards.
Opponent plays a Gold and 4 Silvers.
Opponent buys a Province.
(Opponent reshuffles.)
(Opponent draws: a Province, 2 Fishing Villages, and 2 Silvers.)
— Me's turn 9 —
Me gets +1 action and +$1 from the Fishing Village.
Me plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... drawing 3 cards.
... Opponent draws 1 card.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... drawing 2 cards.
... Opponent draws 1 card.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... gaining a Gold.
... Opponent gains a Silver.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... Me trashes a Gold.
... Me gains a Province.
... Opponent trashes a Chapel.
... Opponent gains a Fishing Village.
Me plays 2 Golds.
Me buys a Province.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: a Province, 2 Golds, and 2 Governors.)
— Opponent's turn 9 —
Opponent plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Opponent plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Opponent plays a Gold and 2 Silvers.
Opponent buys a Province.
(Opponent draws: a Province, a Moat, and 3 Silvers.)
— Me's turn 10 —
Me gets +1 action and +$1 from the Fishing Village.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... drawing 3 cards.
... (Opponent reshuffles.)
... Opponent draws 1 card.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... drawing 3 cards.
... Opponent draws 1 card.
Me plays a Fishing Village.
... getting +2 actions and +$1.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... drawing 1 card.
... Opponent draws 1 card.
Me plays a Governor.
... getting +1 action.
... Me trashes a Gold.
... Me gains a Province.
... Opponent trashes a Silver.
... Opponent gains a Spy.
Me plays 2 Golds.
Me buys a Province.
(Me reshuffles.)
(Me draws: 3 Provinces, a Fishing Village, and a Chapel.)
All Provinces are gone.
Me wins!
And honestly, I screwed up that last turn, I could have won by more if I did a better job counting cards. I've played a number of games with what is supposedly "better" openings, but I've never seen a combo like those 2 cards cause a game to end so quickly. I think if both of us had started 5/2, the game could have actually been over in 9 turns.
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